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The reality here is mostly people having short term contracts and low wages. Also, in Italy there is no minimum salary and in many cases people need to emigrate to enjoy better conditions. For example elementary school teachers barely make 1000 euros a month after 5 years of studies and an exam. Conversely, the salary in Germany is much higher for the same job, yet nobody blames Germany for not being competitive and refuse the reality.
Don't get me wrong, I understand something needs to be fixed, but I would not describe the life of most people I know as people getting paid for nothing. I have however met people who worked for free, expecting a pay that never came from people who exploited them.
Are you assuming Germans and Italians SHOULD have equal pay? That's questionable. Germany still manufactures tons of world class high-tech products and export to the rest of the world, what does Italy produce nowadays? I am not saying they don't do anything, but are they even comparable? There is a reason Germans make more money.
Low wage is a result, not a cause for bad economy. I thought it is econ 101. You can't just raise everyone's wage and expect economy to turn good. Income can be raised when you have strong economic growth. You can't remain unproductive yet expect to earn high wages. Nobody deserves that.
The problem with many European countries such as Italy is that they can no longer afford a rich country lifestyle, but they refuse to accept the fact, and therefore no reform can be successful. You can't expect to work short hours (like 35 a week), have low productivity, not create much important and competitive for the world, and at the same time have all the welfare and benefits and wealth and a comfortable life.
Many Europeans become too used to being "developed countries" and are selfishly reject sacrificed to cope with cold hard reality. I am not surprised in 3 decades Italy is no longer considered a high income country.
You can certainly choose to work less but you have to accept a lower standard of living, something they don't want to give up either.
botticelli, you raise some excellent points and I can't give you any more rep at the moment.
Realize that Italians have largely refused to adapt to changing economic conditions in the global environment since the early 1990s: both the electorate and the politicians have consciously pursued a policy to protect in the 1990s-2000s those who became comfortable in the 1970s-1980s at the expense of the upcoming generations, now going on a third.
Worth repeating, this is a conscious decision on their part.
They've been talking about reform since the late 1980s, but over the past 25 years or so they have done only a lot of talking and a little bit of tinkering around the edges.
Now going on three lost generations, you too clearly see how such a decline is not easily reversed.
The latest reform proposal not only did not address any pertinent economic issue (again, again, again), it actually would have been a step backwards politically. At least the electorate rejected that.
Matteo Renzi, is it that guy who sent the Italian Navy to the coast of Lybia to fish "refugees" there and bring them to Italy and Europe ? Good riddance, then.
Are you assuming Germans and Italians SHOULD have equal pay? That's questionable. Germany still manufactures tons of world class high-tech products and export to the rest of the world, what does Italy produce nowadays? I am not saying they don't do anything, but are they even comparable? There is a reason Germans make more money.
Low wage is a result, not a cause for bad economy. I thought it is econ 101. You can't just raise everyone's wage and expect economy to turn good. Income can be raised when you have strong economic growth. You can't remain unproductive yet expect to earn high wages. Nobody deserves that.
When we are talking about education I see no reason why german teachers should make three times more money as Italian ones, really.
Small industries are pretty strong where I live, agriculture is also a strong point, and also high quality clothing. Also, tourism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigeonhole
Matteo Renzi, is it that guy who sent the Italian Navy to the coast of Lybia to fish "refugees" there and bring them to Italy and Europe ? Good riddance, then.
Frontex is a european institution. What should he have done ? sink the boats ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bale002
botticelli, you raise some excellent points and I can't give you any more rep at the moment.
Realize that Italians have largely refused to adapt to changing economic conditions in the global environment since the early 1990s: both the electorate and the politicians have consciously pursued a policy to protect in the 1990s-2000s those who became comfortable in the 1970s-1980s at the expense of the upcoming generations, now going on a third.
Worth repeating, this is a conscious decision on their part.
They've been talking about reform since the late 1980s, but over the past 25 years or so they have done only a lot of talking and a little bit of tinkering around the edges.
Now going on three lost generations, you too clearly see how such a decline is not easily reversed.
The latest reform proposal not only did not address any pertinent economic issue (again, again, again), it actually would have been a step backwards politically. At least the electorate rejected that.
Good Luck!
What do you mean, refusing to adapt ? Most people have short term contracts now, work for low wages, teachers have to wait on average for 10 years (10 years !!) until they have a fixed situation and a job security, many people have 2 or 3 jobs, and like I said there is no minimum salary. For instance now there are food delivery guys who ride bikes who make 2.50 euros an hour without much of benefits or insurance (and it's not like biking is very safe in this country to begin with). Isn't that modern economy ? Are you really convinced that Italians are waiting at home for their checks while they wait for the pasta to be ready ??
Last year I had a job interview to become a personal shopper, I had to bring my own car, have a working smartphone, pay the fuel and shop for people who made shopping on the internet. The pay was very low and of course I had to answer within 15 minutes otherwise I'd be cancelled from the list, and generally there were very few benefits whatsoever. That is a very normal work situation nowadays in Italy, so i'd say free market economy and competition is pretty widespread. It is pretty far from being a socialist paradise.
What do you mean, refusing to adapt ? Most people have short term contracts now, work for low wages, teachers have to wait on average for 10 years (10 years !!) until they have a fixed situation and a job security, many people have 2 or 3 jobs, and like I said there is no minimum salary. For instance now there are food delivery guys who ride bikes who make 2.50 euros an hour without much of benefits or insurance (and it's not like biking is very safe in this country to begin with). Isn't that modern economy ? Are you really convinced that Italians are waiting at home for their checks while they wait for the pasta to be ready ??
Last year I had a job interview to become a personal shopper, I had to bring my own car, have a working smartphone, pay the fuel and shop for people who made shopping on the internet. The pay was very low and of course I had to answer within 15 minutes otherwise I'd be cancelled from the list, and generally there were very few benefits whatsoever. That is a very normal work situation nowadays in Italy, so i'd say free market economy and competition is pretty widespread. It is pretty far from being a socialist paradise.
Wow! Your range of vision really is circumscribed. Not a surprise.
Listen, sonny, I tell you this: if they had earnestly pursued certain reforms then, a good number of you would not be in this predicament now. It was foreseeable to some back then.
Wow! Your sphere of sight really is delimited. Not a surprise.
Listen, sonny, I tell you this: if they had earnestly pursued certain reforms then, a good number of you would not be in this predicament now.
Good Luck!
can you speak like a normal person please ? Because I don't really know what you mean (which reforms for instance), and you're being quite unpleasant to say the least.
I think I have a better idea of life in Italy than most people on this board since I live there, but whatever.
Most people have short term contracts now, work for low wages, teachers have to wait on average for 10 years (10 years !!) until they have a fixed situation and a job security, many people have 2 or 3 jobs, and like I said there is no minimum salary. For instance now there are food delivery guys who ride bikes who make 2.50 euros an hour without much of benefits or insurance (and it's not like biking is very safe in this country to begin with). Isn't that modern economy ? Are you really convinced that Italians are waiting at home for their checks while they wait for the pasta to be ready ??
Last year I had a job interview to become a personal shopper, I had to bring my own car, have a working smartphone, pay the fuel and shop for people who made shopping on the internet. The pay was very low and of course I had to answer within 15 minutes otherwise I'd be cancelled from the list, and generally there were very few benefits whatsoever. That is a very normal work situation nowadays in Italy, so i'd say free market economy and competition is pretty widespread. It is pretty far from being a socialist paradise.
In fact you proved my point. Italy is pretty much on the verge of slipping out of rich country status. People have low wages and delivery guys are willing to ride bikes to make 2.5 euros an hour because that's what the Italian economy can sustain and that's the quality of life they are able to have.
In China, plenty of delivery guys work like slaves for 200 euros a month, but you won't think that's crazy, so that's so unacceptable for Italy? The country is declining for decades while others are growing 8%, 10% a year.
You think it is bad because Italy used to be one of the richest countries and people are used to comfortable life. But you know what, countries decline. Argentina use to have 80% of US per capita income, now it is like 20%. Why can't Italy be the next?
As I said, plenty of old world rich countries will be no longer that rich in 20, 30 years. 20 years ago, most Chinese look European countries in awe. Today, you won't see many Chinese want to move to Spain or Italy even if given the chance because living standard will be more or less the same. This is how countries like Italy have changed, even in foreigners eyes. For the Chinese, taking a vacation for 2 weeks is quite rare, and working 10, 12 hours is Completely normal. It is not uncommon to see people work during weekends at all. They work more which is why their living standard increased rapidly. Wealth doesn't appear out of thin air.
the only way they can get out of this is to accept the new reality, and work longer and harder and stop pretending they are entitled to this and that which they use to have. It is safe to say the comfortable days are over. It will only get worse because these southern EU countries have been living well based on higher debt. And it is not sustainable.
In fact you proved my point. Italy is pretty much on the verge of slipping out of rich country status. People have low wages and delivery guys are willing to ride bikes to make 2.5 euros an hour because that's what the Italian economy can sustain and that's the quality of life they are able to have.
In China, plenty of delivery guys work like slaves for 200 euros a month, but you won't think that's crazy, so that's so unacceptable for Italy? The country is declining for decades while others are growing 8%, 10% a year.
You think it is bad because Italy used to be one of the richest countries and people are used to comfortable life. But you know what, countries decline. Argentina use to have 80% of US per capita income, now it is like 20%. Why can't Italy be the next?
As I said, plenty of old world rich countries will be no longer that rich in 20, 30 years. 20 years ago, most Chinese look European countries in awe. Today, you won't see many Chinese want to move to Spain or Italy even if given the chance because living standard will be more or less the same. More and more even give up good jobs in Canada and the US. This is how countries like Italy have changed, even in foreigners eyes.
That is exactly because peoples' situation has worsened that nobody wants it to worsen anymore.
Working so much for so little money is unacceptable in any country, not only Italy.
I have personaly met people who worked as architects and were really offered low salaries or no salaries at all. At expo 2015 there were many cases were people worked for indecent wages given the conditions, because they often had no other choice.
Do you think it is positive ? People working so much for so little money are the epitome of productivity if you think about it.
That is exactly because peoples' situation has worsened that nobody wants it to worsen anymore.
Working so much for so little money is unacceptable in any country, not only Italy.
I have personaly met people who worked as architects and were really offered low salaries or no salaries at all. At expo 2015 there were many cases were people worked for indecent wages given the conditions, because they often had no other choice.
Do you think it is positive ? People working so much for so little money are the epitome of productivity if you think about it.
Unacceptable? What do you mean unacceptable?
You seem to live in the bubble. In this world, developed countries consititute a rather small percentage of world population. 80% of world population earn wages you think is "unacceptable", but that's how much wealth they created and that's the life they get.
what is acceptable and what is "indecent"? there is no definition. You think it is unacceptable from a pure entitled European perspective. People work for 2.5 euros an hour is definitely not a good thing, but that's how poor or rich Italy is now. Wages are not artificially pushed down by anyone. It is a result of demand and supply. The Indians would be glad to make 2.5 euros an hour and there are 1.3 billion of them, 20 times of Italy.
you think artificially increasing wage will solve the problem? Why not try double everyone's wage tomorrow, will everyone be twice as rich? no. You still create the same amount of wealth and the only difference is your 2 euros can buy only one euro worth of stuff.
The key is producing more products and create more wealth. That's how to improve living standard, not by paying one more paper money.
The best course is to pause these agreements for the time being.
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