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A pretty good example of how the threat from terrorism - which is real, but statistically tiny compared to other potential modes of harm - is being used, consciously or not, to indulge the part that exists in all of us (but which is more exposed in some people than in others) that is simply frightened of change.
In other words, you're not really frightened of being blown up, but the slightly-less-tiny-than-before chance of this happening provides a sort of heightened dramatic context for something that definitely is happening - namely, that a part of the world which many value for its quaint irrelevance is currently being catapulted into some version of the situation of change that has for some time been the norm in most other parts of the world.
A certain sub-clique of American tourists, of which you are a prime example, seems to want to come and see something that represents a particular olde worlde vision of Europe. That's understandable. But culture is dynamic. The fact that things seem different to you from how they did twenty years ago only demonstrates this essential, vital quality of culture. When I return to London from the relatively homogenous part of eastern Europe where I am currently living, I am wowed by the cultural achievements of recent decades - namely, the complex and highly developed interplay of different cultures that now exists in places like London. It's certain that some things have been lost, and by far the biggest culprit when it comes to homogenization is big business, and the unfair commercial environment it has constructed around itself. But the cultural mix - and, indeed, the entirely new cultures that have emerged from this - are something quite new and quite unique to time and place. If you see only the fact that, say, there are fewer bakeries and butcher shops than there were in the past, and miss the entirely new manifestations of culture that have appeared as those have - and I agree that this is a sad thing - withered away, then you are not an observant traveller.
Nope, as I clearly stated, it's not the "slightly less tiny than before chance of being blown up" that's keeping me from traveling (again) to Europe right now. I clearly stated that if I hadn't already been there done that repeatedly, the threat of terrorism wouldn't keep me from visiting - and in fact, I also said that my husband and I are discussing traveling to Poland (which last time I checked was in Europe).
I preferred the Europe of twenty years ago because it wasn't as touristy, it wasn't as crowded with immigrants and yes, each country still had more local, historical, and unique charm. Frankly, if I want to go to Bangladesh or Istanbul, I'll go there - I don't go to Europe to experience those cultures.
As for
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If you see only the fact that, say, there are fewer bakeries and butcher shops than there were in the past, and miss the entirely new manifestations of culture that have appeared as those have - and I agree that this is a sad thing - withered away, then you are not an observant traveller.
Well, that doesn't apply to me. I thoroughly enjoyed our vacation in the UK a couple of years ago in spite of all the commercialism, big box stores, and fast food that is so familiar to us already as Americans.
I guess you could compare this to someone who comes to the US for a visit, expecting to see Amish and covered bridges and quaint towns nestled in mountains with white church spires gleaming, and light houses and redwoods - but they fly into San Antonio and instead of Americana, they spend a week eating Tex Mex food and listening to Mexican radio stations. It's not that San Antonio isn't a fun, American city, but it might not be exactly what they had in mind.
Classic European charm - with European flavor and vibe - is of course still to be found in Europe, which is why I always encourage folks who haven't been to Europe to please visit. It's why I'm pretty sure I'll be going back also.
But I have different life experiences than you do, and they color my preferences and opinions - as yours do. Let me give you a couple of examples:
We have good friends in Belgium, who live just outside of Brussels. They are native Belgians. They are absolutely distraught and in dismay about the current conditions in that region. They have experienced several lockdowns recently - businesses closed, people confined to their buildings, subways and highways shut down - due to terrorist activities and attacks. It's real.
My husband has had to pay large amounts of cash just to get out of several Middle East, West African, and South American/Central American countries as political and societal upheaval happened all around him. I've actually had to call the American Embassy to help find him and get him out at one point. He was stuck in Saudi Arabia after 9/11. We travel so much that yes, our lives have been negatively impacted several times due to international terrorism. Remember the abductions from oil platforms off the coast of Nigeria a few years ago, by pirates? One of those platforms was one my husband had JUST LEFT two days earlier. It's real.
I have a friend who lives in Paris. She also recently experienced the turmoil and dismay and upheaval of terrorist attacks. Her husband is Muslim. Their lives have become pretty complicated and in many ways unpleasant, though they are both well educated, not particularly religious, upper class professionals. It's real.
I'm not living in fear. In fact, we fly very often, and if I was living in fear that would stop, because I am very aware that a terrorist attack could happen here as well as anywhere else (for the past two years all our flights have been domestic flights). But when it comes to Europe, like I said, I've been there done that - twenty years ago and several times since then including as recently as two years ago. I'll go back. But personally, I'm a bit tired of all the hoopla at international airports, and I am not enamored by the immigrant situation in major metros throughout Europe. I'm content to wait a year or so, or even three years or so, to give things a chance to settle down a bit. Meanwhile, there is so much to see in the US and frankly, I'm content with a four hour domestic flight to some place interesting, like the places I mentioned (Great Lakes, New England coast, and I'll add the Florida Keys - all places that I'm chagrined to say I haven't explored yet, right here in my own back yard).
To each his own. While I like Europe in general, I'm not enamored with it, and like I said, I've spent a LOT of time in Europe already. I'm fine with giving it a break for now.
And next time, try actually reading what I really say, rather than superimposing your own prejudices and preconceived notions on my real, and very clear, words and opinions.
Last edited by KathrynAragon; 04-05-2016 at 08:22 AM..
Frankly, that's a lot of hyperbole... It's certainly not Muslim immigrants that changed the experience for tourists. I mean, how many tourists really go to those areas affected by working class migrants? Heck, even I didn't go there very often...
I don't think people underestimate how many refugees and immigrants there are in Europe. Quite to the contrary. I think it's overestimated by those that haven't been in Europe at all or haven't been there for a long while. Possibly due to the extensive media coverage...
I live in EU! And I work at Brussels! This is my single bit about your FEAR!
If your time is right to leave this temporary soul that will be happen even if you live inside of your own house with every safety facilities. It can be anything fell from bed or bathroom,etc etc... Enjoy the moments don't let the fears to take over you.
Frankly, that's a lot of hyperbole... It's certainly not Muslim immigrants that changed the experience for tourists. I mean, how many tourists really go to those areas affected by working class migrants? Heck, even I didn't go there very often...
I don't think people underestimate how many refugees and immigrants there are in Europe. Quite to the contrary. I think it's overestimated by those that haven't been in Europe at all or haven't been there for a long while. Possibly due to the extensive media coverage...
I've seen the changes with my own eyes and experienced them myself. And until a year ago, my daughter lived just outside of Leeds in the UK, and she experienced the changes that immigration wrought on that region first hand as well. Our friends who live in Europe can also testify to those changes -both good and bad. Of course societies change - we're always in a constant state of change, and I think that's just the norm. But that's not to say that all change is good. It just is what it is.
I didn't say that Muslim immigrants are solely responsible - or even mostly responsible - for the changed experience for tourists. I specifically stated that big box stores, commercialism, tourism in general, fast food, etc. have changed my personal experiences in Europe - along with an increase in immigrants, but that's not the first and foremost change or cause of change. So I submit that your post may be a bit on the side of hyperbole since you misrepresented what I clearly said in order to make your own point. But the changes brought on by immigration ARE present and they didn't start with the current wave of immigrants - they started decades ago with the influx of immigrants from Turkey, and then it was exacerbated by the fall of the Berlin Wall and communism, and the open borders which created an influx of people from other countries and cultures into western Europe.
If I were to take your stance, I'd have to deny that the immigration, legal and otherwise, of Hispanics into the US hasn't really made a notable difference in the country. The truth is - much as it is in Europe - that perception depends a lot on the region and the city you're talking about. Here in Texas, the Hispanic population has made a huge impact. In Iowa - not so much. A person who visited San Antonio would have a much different take on the Hispanic influence than a person who visited Salt Lake City, Utah.
I'm not saying that immigration in Europe all bad either - what I'm saying is that I am very glad I got to experience western Europe (as well as eastern Europe) twenty years ago, before immigration and mass movements of cultures eroded some of the individuality of various European countries. I liked the individuality - heck, I even liked the different monetary units. It was sort of fun. Even crossing the borders was interesting. It's a way of life that's gone now, but I'm glad I experienced it.
Last edited by KathrynAragon; 04-05-2016 at 09:09 AM..
I live in EU! And I work at Brussels! This is my single bit about your FEAR!
If your time is right to leave this temporary soul that will be happen even if you live inside of your own house with every safety facilities. It can be anything fell from bed or bathroom,etc etc... Enjoy the moments don't let the fears to take over you.
I agree with this completely.
Look, I am just as vigilant when traveling domestically as I am when traveling internationally. But international travel IS more complicated, more of a hassle, generally more expensive, more crowded, etc.
I really enjoy Europe, but due to many factors which I've already named, I'm OK with giving it a rest for a bit. Like I said, there's a lot to see in this big, beautiful world, and a lot still left for me to see and do in the US. If I thought I would never return to Europe, that would make me sad. But international travel is such a big ordeal right now. I'm OK with taking a break and spending more time seeing the many interesting sites closer by.
I was just encouraging a young cashier at World Market to follow her dreams and visit the UK, just the other day. I'm all for it, if that's what someone wants to do. But I'll be the first to admit that traveling by air has definitely lost much of it's charm for me - I guess I'm just tired of the trouble. So shorter flights and domestic rather than international is what appeals to me right now, and yes - a large part of that increased hassle (not fear on my part, just the hassle) stems directly from international terrorism. Sad but true.
Last edited by KathrynAragon; 04-05-2016 at 10:11 AM..
Nope, as I clearly stated, it's not the "slightly less tiny than before chance of being blown up" that's keeping me from traveling (again) to Europe right now.
Yes, that's exactly what I said. Try reading again:
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In other words, you're not really frightened of being blown up, but the slightly-less-tiny-than-before chance of this happening provides a sort of heightened dramatic context for something that definitely is happening - namely, that a part of the world which many value for its quaint irrelevance is currently being catapulted into some version of the situation of change that has for some time been the norm in most other parts of the world.
New emphasis. But, you do deserve credit for being open about the fact that a static, fixed-in-aspic view of what Europe should be is what lies behind your lack of interest in returning:
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I preferred the Europe of twenty years ago because it wasn't as touristy, it wasn't as crowded with immigrants and yes, each country still had more local, historical, and unique charm. Frankly, if I want to go to Bangladesh or Istanbul, I'll go there - I don't go to Europe to experience those cultures.
I hate to tell you this, but most of the things you like about European culture would not exist without past instances of mass migration.
But in the end, Europe is better off without travellers who come here wishing to impose a narrow, prescriptive, xenophobic set of preconceptions - especially those who often seek to hide those behind a veneer of cosmopolitanism.
Yes, that's exactly what I said. Try reading again:
New emphasis. But, you do deserve credit for being open about the fact that a static, fixed-in-aspic view of what Europe should be is what lies behind your lack of interest in returning:
I hate to tell you this, but most of the things you like about European culture would not exist without past instances of mass migration.
Oh please, George. And Bill, too.
I don't have a static fixed in aspic view of what Europe "should be" just because I have a personal preference for fewer touristy items and venues, fewer fast food joints I can find on any Main Street in the US, fewer big box stores filled with mass produced junk from China that I can also find just down the street from where I live, and because I enjoyed the more individualized character of Europe's countries twenty years ago. I'm not trying to impose any sort of standards or preconceptions on anyone - I just had more fun in Europe when countries were more unique and individualized and air travel was less of a hassle.
One more thing, I'm not counting on you for my history lessons - European history is very interesting to me and I'm pretty well read on the topic. I understand the effects of migration and immigration - after all, I am an American, and my ancestors settled Pennsylvania and Virginia in the 1600s. My family is very multicultural, with several first and second generation members from foreign countries in the immediate family. No need on your part to break the news to me that immigration impacts culture. Oh by the way - I live in Texas, where the Hispanic population is nearly 40 percent. Yeah - I "get" the cultural impacts of immigration.
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But in the end, Europe is better off without travellers who come here wishing to impose a narrow, prescriptive, xenophobic set of preconceptions - especially those who often seek to hide those behind a veneer of cosmopolitanism.
You really outdid yourself with this statement. It's ridiculous to think of me (and we both know you're talking about me, just in a passive/aggressive manner) expecting to "impose a narrow, prescriptive, xenophobic set of preconceptions" on Europeans when I travel there - as if I even could. Look, if I'm going to spend $10,000 on a vacation (that's the average we spend when we visit Europe), I don't relish the idea of the current hassle of international air travel and then the factors I have already mentioned several times - and then, way down my list but present - the dilution and homogenization of distinct European cultures, which is incessant and ongoing. I freely admit that it was more interesting and fun before all this - to me. I can have that opinion without being xenophobic or even narrow minded.
Sorry to alarm you, but I'll be back. It's just that I have had to adjust my expectations and focus on different aspects. And all this change and hassle has re-invigorated my interest in vacationing in the US more - going to areas I haven't seen, in part because I've always thought "Big vacation? LET'S GO TO EUROPE." Europe isn't my default anymore, and I'm OK with that. But I'll be back. For one thing, I haven't been to Scotland yet, and I also want to see more of Poland. And I want to see the new house our friends in Belgium have built, so there you go.
Not sure what you mean by the snarky comment "especially those who often seek to hide behind a veneer of cosmopolitanism." I mean, I know what you are implying, but your implication is inaccurate. I'm a friendly, curious, well read and well traveled middle aged American from Texas, but when I travel I don't generally go first class, I don't seek out high brow activities, I wear sensible shoes, I read up on local customs and expectations before I go, I buy T shirts, and I enjoy pub hopping and pub food. I nearly always have very pleasant interactions with local people and other travelers. I don't downplay my Texan Americana but I also don't run around draped in an American flag, talking about GWB as if he were God, or for that matter talking about God at all. I don't pretend to be anything I'm not - and one thing I'm definitely NOT is "cosmopolitan." I'm middle class from a mid sized town and a mid sized family and the only thing that may set me apart from some of my American neighbors is that due to my curiosity and my energy level, the nature of my former job, my husband's current job, and my dad's former job, I've had the opportunity to travel a lot and I really like it.
If it makes you feel superior in some way to put all that down, then carry on. But I know which mindset seems the most pretentious to me.
Last edited by KathrynAragon; 04-05-2016 at 11:57 AM..
Your whole overlong diatribe is one of a spoilt consumer who is throwing their toys out of the pram because they don't like the new wallpaper in the Charles Dickens Tearoom. If you want to boast about how much you spend on your vacations, it would come across better to just come right out and do so, rather than coyly half hiding it, while keeping your rather vulgar desire to name sums of money on full display.
After your deeply offensive comments about Bangladeshi and Turkish culture, I don't think we need to hear any more from you. The cultures of Asia are as much a part of Europe as a visit to Raffles is part of a trip to Singapore - and the latter fact gives you a little clue as to why the former is the case.
I'm not concerned about your threat to return, because I'm confident that people like you are still very much in decline as a share of visitors to Europe.
Incidentally, I think I have a fairly good insight into what sort of traveller you are, because I offered you quite a bit of information concerning your trip to the UK - back at a point when the extent of your narrow-mindedness was not yet so clear to me. If you exercised a similar lack of talent for discovering living culture in the rest of Europe as you did in the UK, then I'm not surprised at the limitedness of your perspectives.
Your whole overlong diatribe is one of a spoilt consumer who is throwing their toys out of the pram because they don't like the new wallpaper in the Charles Dickens Tearoom. If you want to boast about how much you spend on your vacations, it would come across better to just come right out and do so, rather than coyly-half hiding it, while keeping your rather vulgar desire to name sums of money on full display.
After your deeply offensive comments about Bangladeshi and Turkish culture, I don't think we need to hear any more from you. The cultures of Asia are as much a part of Europe as a visit to Raffles is part of a trip to Singapore - and the latter fact gives you a little clue as to why the former is the case.
I'm not concerned about your threat to return, because I'm confident that people like you are still very much in decline as a share of visitors to Europe.
I have no interest in visiting the Charles Dickens Tearoom and I don't care what sort of wallpaper is in there. I'm much more interested in the Tower, and I think the little mechanical walk that you have to get on to slip past the Crown Jewels is a bit offsetting but I guess it's the most efficient way to move people along.
As for my "vulgar desire to name sums of money," that's a cultural difference between the UK and the US - you should realize that if you're going to have a discussion with an American. We're much more prone to throw figures like that around, and it's not considered vulgar to do so in some contexts - such as this. Yes, when we go on vacation in Europe, we usually spend about $10,000 and a huge chunk of that is on air fare and hotels and the hotel cost is impacted by the length of our stay. We aren't prone to take group tours and rush from one site to the other - we prefer to stay a bit longer and meander at our own pace. This drives up the cost. It's money well spent for the most part, but considering the points I've made about my own experiences and personal preferences, I am looking forward to spending less on very rewarding vacations closer to home for a few years.
Now - if I told you what our income was each year in the context of this thread, Americans might find that vulgar. But that's not what I did. And this is an American-based forum, so excuse me while I insist on interacting as an American. I mean, I am one. It was not my intention to offend your finely honed cultural sensitivites. Kate Winslet on money: She says it's vulgar.
Cultural differences - practice what you preach and embrace them.
My "deeply offensive comments about Bangladeshi and Turkish culture..." What on earth are you on about there? Oh, you mean "If I wanted to experience Bangladesh or Istanbul culture, I'd go there" - that one? Because that's the only comment I made about those cultures. If you find that deeply offensive, then may I suggest that you're a bit thin skinned?
I think we share at least one thing in common though, and that's the peace of mind that the likelihood of ever running into each other in real life is very slim.
By the way, do you always address yourself in the plural form? I mean, you are George and Bill, but when you say "we don't need to hear any more from you," are you talking about you, yourself and Bill, or are you presuming to speak for all Europeans, or what? We are not amused. Well, actually, I am, but I can only speak for myself.
I have no interest in visiting the Charles Dickens Tearoom and I don't care what sort of wallpaper is in there. I'm much more interested in the Tower
This, I must say, is brilliant - because in the symbolic form in which the Charles Dickens Tearoom was appearing, 'the Tower' is interchangeable with it.
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My "deeply offensive comments about Bangladeshi and Turkish culture..." What on earth are you on about there? Oh, you mean "If I wanted to experience Bangladesh or Istanbul culture, I'd go there" - that one? Because that's the only comment I made about those cultures. If you find that deeply offensive, then may I suggest that you're a bit thin skinned?
Right - a bit like if, after I visited southern Texas, I had declared that if I'd wanted to experience Mexican culture, I would have gone to Mexico. That would be neither offensive nor historically illiterate - no siree!
As for the money thing - sure, it's fine to decide whether or not you come across as vulgar.
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