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Generally, I would agree with your friend and disagree with you, especially for more advanced lifters.
If he can shoulder press significantly more seated, and it's because his lower back/core can't support a heavier standing press, then I'd say he's cheating his shoulders if he only does standing overhead. He should do seated overhead to build shoulders, then work his abs with weighted crunches or something, and low back with extra deadlifts, good mornings, back extensions or something similar. Then, each body part is worked as effectively as possible.
For a beginner, my advice would be different.
Advanced guys though sometimes need isolation stuff, and shouldn't let weak links hurt their workout. Shrugs are a classic example. If you're building up your traps, why should you let your grip get in the way? Just because you can't double overhand hold a 500 or 600 pound barbell when doing shrugs doesn't mean that you shouldn't work your traps with it. Use straps/chalk. Then work your grip separately and effectively. IMO
Generally, I would agree with your friend and disagree with you, especially for more advanced lifters.
If he can shoulder press significantly more seated, and it's because his lower back/core can't support a heavier standing press, then I'd say he's cheating his shoulders if he only does standing overhead. He should do seated overhead to build shoulders, then work his abs with weighted crunches or something, and low back with extra deadlifts, good mornings, back extensions or something similar.
Eh, so what you're saying is: if you have a weakness, run away from it, instead of tackling it head on? And this is supposed to be advice for an advanced lifter?
Well I didn't start this thread to discuss crossfit (I don't do crossfit) or argue about what's functional or what isn't, and I'm definitely not into the "squats will help your biceps grow" hype. Really it was more about how a compound movement can have carryover effects onto other compound movements....with your entire body being the big winner after it's all said and done.
Generally, I would agree with your friend and disagree with you, especially for more advanced lifters.
If he can shoulder press significantly more seated, and it's because his lower back/core can't support a heavier standing press, then I'd say he's cheating his shoulders if he only does standing overhead. He should do seated overhead to build shoulders, then work his abs with weighted crunches or something, and low back with extra deadlifts, good mornings, back extensions or something similar. Then, each body part is worked as effectively as possible.
For a beginner, my advice would be different.
Advanced guys though sometimes need isolation stuff, and shouldn't let weak links hurt their workout. Shrugs are a classic example. If you're building up your traps, why should you let your grip get in the way? Just because you can't double overhand hold a 500 or 600 pound barbell when doing shrugs doesn't mean that you shouldn't work your traps with it. Use straps/chalk. Then work your grip separately and effectively. IMO
This. If anything your core is limiting you. It's like, letting your grip determine how much weight you use when doing deadlifts. I'm not doing a forearm exercise, so why let that set the tone for the exercise? Use some straps. That way you can work the intended muscle group with the intensity it can hold. You can work your forearms in another way.
Eh, so what you're saying is: if you have a weakness, run away from it, instead of tackling it head on? And this is supposed to be advice for an advanced lifter?
That isn't even close to what I said. I said, in the very next sentence after I said not to limit your shoulder growth, to target your known weakness (core strength in this case) with specific training like deadlifts, weighted situps, etc to bring your core up to par. Yes, advanced lifters do usually need isolation work to keep progressing. Also, btw, specific training like GMs or DLs will do far more for your core strength than continuing to hammer away at the same weight in an OHP when your core is your limiting factor. That's a good way to stall in your overall progress--shoulders will stay the same, core will only very slowly get stronger compared to a program that actually addresses your weaknesses head on instead of "indirectly" by frustrating yourself on an underweight OHP. Exactly like I suggested the first time.
Also, the reason why I say its different for beginners is that they stand to gain the most from developing the skill in mastering the basic lifts (skills an advanced lifter has presumably already mastered). If a beginner can't support an OHP, it's often as much a matter of a lack of coordination, experience & comfort with the lift as it is a matter of pure muscular strength (although this can obviously vary between individuals). The beginner will improve quickly in terms of balance, coordination, etc by working these things directly, and is rarely at a point in development where any one body part is going to be a serious "weak point" compared with some other body part. Thus, isolation work is not as valuable for them in general.
I use straps for clean/snatch pulls. Cl/Sn pulls @ 100+ kilo for reps of five (from low blocks or blocks @ knees or even clean/snatch deadlifts from ground) for more than three destroys your hands. Also helps focus on the technique, the push with the quads and the snappy 2nd pull. Enforces technique + saves the hands.
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