[annerk]

One good thing is that the shooter killed himself, sparing the taxpayers the expense of a trial and umpteen appeals and 40 years of housing and feeding his sorry ass.

[Not_liking_FL]

Originally Posted by Spring Hillian

Think so? All very do-able ways to kill without a gun.

You asked a question, I gave an answer. That will be the last time.

You made a ridiculous statement and then gave an even more ridiculous answer to my question.

[kyle19125]

Originally Posted by Spring Hillian

Yeah but none of those countries have such a large underclass as we do. Here we have a dire need to protect ourselves from those who have no problem taking what you have, including your life.

Those are human characteristics you speak of, not just American and no more "dire" than anywhere else. Pepper Spray/Wasp Spray, a knife, a baseball bat or other item can and will suffice in place of a gun and protecting one's self with similar will suffice as well. Just because the screaming, bloated white men on Fox News say so doesn't mean it's a necessity. Follow the money trail from the gun manufacturers and gun lobby...

[Spring Hillian]

Originally Posted by kyle19125

Those are human characteristics you speak of, not just American and no more "dire" than anywhere else. Pepper Spray/Wasp Spray, a knife, a baseball bat or other item can and will suffice in place of a gun and protecting one's self with similar will suffice as well. Just because the screaming, bloated white men on Fox News say so doesn't mean it's a necessity. Follow the money trail from the gun manufacturers and gun lobby...

Kind of hard to carry around a baseball bat all day. Sprays could work if you hit your target square in the face. you really need to know how to use a knife in situations. I'd take a .380 over any of those any day for on-street response to an attack upon my person.

[Spring Hillian]

Originally Posted by kyle19125

Those are human characteristics you speak of, not just American and no more "dire" than anywhere else. Pepper Spray/Wasp Spray, a knife, a baseball bat or other item can and will suffice in place of a gun and protecting one's self with similar will suffice as well. Just because the screaming, bloated white men on Fox News say so doesn't mean it's a necessity. Follow the money trail from the gun manufacturers and gun lobby...

Of course gun manufactures support the gun lobby. Just like chemical companies support their lobby so that their products can be sold without restrain. Ownership of firearms is a choice Americans can make. Carrying firearms in public is almost universally permitted in the U.S. Take a look at the statistics and determine how many firearms related crimes are committed by legal gun owners against those
committed by everyone else.

If you take the firearm from a legal owner you are making a criminal smile as they then know that you have no means of recourse when they take your property, your well being or your life.

Since ownership of firearms is a choice Americans can make, you make your choices and I will make mine.

[Spring Hillian]

Your personal thoughts arent going to do you any good when you find yourself in a life/safety/health threatening situation. Wake up from the dream and look what is actually going on around you.

Seems some think that being attacked (such as in Zimmerman, Reeves) should submit to the attack.
It is obvious that none of these zealots have ever been victim of crimes and/or never sat down to talk with a rape victim, a home invasion victim, a robbery victim.

Originally Posted by Zaba

For the record, I think SpringHillian is one of the absolute worst kind of people there is (based on the opinions he's expressed on the Curtis Reeves shooting) and its no surprise to see him talking similar garbage here. Perpetually paranoid self-defense fetishists are the second ugliest subset of gun owners, behind criminals.

In an abundance of clarity, I think he is the sort of person who, if he had psychological testing for gun ownership, would likely fail.

With that said... Those other 'self defense tools' don't really suffice. Women, the disabled, people of limited physical abilities, really stand no chance against a predatory criminal, not to mention we live in a country with 300,000,000 firearms and as such, basically everyone has one.

Just to be super-duper-mega clear, I think people like George Zimmernan, Curtis Reeves, Michael Dunn are literally the worst types of human beings on earth, the people who 'support' them are really exposing themselves as enormously undesirable people with perverted values, but I don't want my mother left to wasp spray when someone is breaking into her home.

There's a balance between the hysterical narrative of the "THE THUGS ARE GONNA GET YA" every-situation-is-a-deadly-force-situation internet gun forum as*holes and the idea that everyone should be forbidden from owning firearms.

[Zaba]

Originally Posted by Spring Hillian

Your personal thoughts arent going to do you any good when you find yourself in a life/safety/health threatening situation. Wake up from the dream and look what is actually going on around you.

Seems some think that being attacked (such as in Zimmerman, Reeves) should submit to the attack.
It is obvious that none of these zealots have ever been victim of crimes and/or never sat down to talk with a rape victim, a home invasion victim, a robbery victim.

I lived in the 100 blocks of Chicago for years.
I understand more about guns, crime, 'thugs' and danger than you ever, ever will.

Nobody should 'submit to an attack' but the problem is when people like you completely pervert what constitutes an attack warranting a deadly response. Concealed Carry fetishists are big on the idea that its OK to shoot anyone at any time because (insert 'maybe' here) or their own irrational 'feelings'. As we've already established in earlier conversations, contrary to the mantras of the shoot-em-up crowd, the threshold for justifiable homicide isn't what 'you feel'. Its whether or not a jury of 12 people will agree that your feelings were rational.

What I do know is that I feel equally threatened by any given gang member as I do any given "concealed carry permit" paranoid who thinks trivial confrontations are a reason to shoot people. They're both essentially the same thing, low-caliber men who exist on a jungle conception of 'respect'.

The Martin Zale case is another very recent one where a paranoid concealed carrier shot someone in a trivial confrontation because "maybe he was gonna swing on me"... and Mr Zale will soon learn what Mr Reeves will soon learn, what Mr Dunn already has. Your perverse narratives about use of deadly force will get you thrown in a place where the 'thugs' are a lot scarier than a father giving his kids a ride to school, a guy watching a movie or a kid walking home from the store.

[kyle19125]

Originally Posted by Spring Hillian

Of course gun manufactures support the gun lobby. Just like chemical companies support their lobby so that their products can be sold without restrain. Ownership of firearms is a choice Americans can make. Carrying firearms in public is almost universally permitted in the U.S. Take a look at the statistics and determine how many firearms related crimes are committed by legal gun owners against those
committed by everyone else.

If you take the firearm from a legal owner you are making a criminal smile as they then know that you have no means of recourse when they take your property, your well being or your life.

Since ownership of firearms is a choice Americans can make, you make your choices and I will make mine.

Unlike "other choices" others make regarding preferences one can usually dictate whether or not you want it around you and if not take appropriate action. If I disapprove of guns in the hands of militia or concealed carry whack jobs I have no control over that and don't feel my civil liberties are any less than those who choose to misinterpret the Second Amendment in order to further their own paranoia. Like that or lump it.

[kyle19125]

Originally Posted by Spring Hillian

Kind of hard to carry around a baseball bat all day. Sprays could work if you hit your target square in the face. you really need to know how to use a knife in situations. I'd take a .380 over any of those any day for on-street response to an attack upon my person.

The point is if guns were banned like they were in other seemingly more intelligent countries we wouldn't be having the concealed-carry conversation, nor massacres of unarmed people every other day in the news.

[Zaba]

Originally Posted by kyle19125

The point is if guns were banned like they were in other seemingly more intelligent countries we wouldn't be having the concealed-carry conversation, nor massacres of unarmed people every other day in the news.

Unfortunately, we would continue to have all those things.
There are 300,000,000 firearms in this country, all unaccounted for. Not 'registered' with anyone. They are an inexorable facet of our reality like a giant tumor. Obtaining a firearm in this country is trivially easy and will be so forever more.

There is nothing that can be written on a piece of paper in Washington, DC to change this. The situation in other countries is so radically different to be completely incomparable. There is no comparing Britain or Japan with the United States when it comes to firearms.

There's no doubt that if the founding fathers could fast forward to today and see how things turned out, they might have added a few modifiers to the 2nd Amendment but there's no amount of idealism or good intentions that will fix this situation. It's just part of who we are. Its like hurricanes in Florida. You don't have to like them, but you have to live with them.