[Beenaroundabit]

What is really scary I purchased this property with no Scrubjay zoning, approx one third of the area had houses already built, I personally walk & inspect all of my lots before purchasing to make sure thay arent low in wetlands, no eagles turtles etc, the paved roads and electricity and cleared trimmed lots and existing home have been there for years. Then a scrubjay lands on the lot (No nests or evidence of) that the government scout observes, then you are Zoned Scrubjay. Is THis FAIR??? It could happen to ANY PROPERTY OWNER.

It actually takes a lot more than an animal simply landing or appearing on a piece of property before it becomes designated habitat. It's the result of a biological study, after which a "Biological Opinion" is issued and a declaration of "Critical Habitat" is made by the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service. It takes months of study and even more time to get the thing written. I know because I deal with this stuff and have to wait for them all the time for my job. Unless you happen to be a trained biologist (and usually specializing in the study of the particular species you're looking for), simply walking a property and looking for existing evidence of an animal's presence isn't going to tell you much, if anything.

It's unfortunate that people lose money over this, but trying to sue the U.S. government over the Endangered Species Act - a piece of legislation that the U.S. has agreed to uphold in partnership with hundreds of other nations via CITES (the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species) - is going to be an uphill battle. If the U.S. wants other nations to stop doing whatever they might be doing that violates ESA in their countries (like hunting tigers in Russia, killing whales in Japan, etc.), we have to enforce the same law here, which in this case will mean prohibiting development of ESA-designated habitat. Stinks, I know.

BTW - to the poster who suggested simply bulldozing the land until it was nothing but sand - that's called "habitat destruction" and is a crime under ESA, which makes no distinction between destroying habitat or the animal, itself. In fact, I believe there was a case somewhere in FL a few years back where a gentleman decided to cut down a tree with an eagle's nest that was on his property so he could sell the land at a higher price. He ended up doing a stint in jail and paying a $200,000.00 fine.

[imagardener]

Funny thing happened when we went back to the lot we were thinking about buying/building on--we found a gopher tortoise burrow smack dab in the middle of the lot.
I know that's not as serious as scrub jays but still...we're not going to buy the lot.
I love G tortoises and hope the person who does buy the lot doesn't bulldoze over it.

I am torn about whether to contact the county to report it. I don't want to hurt the owner who I've heard is in financial difficulty and maybe foreclosure. I'll have to think about it.

[wbowley]

Originally Posted by imagardener

Funny thing happened when we went back to the lot we were thinking about buying/building on--we found a gopher tortoise burrow smack dab in the middle of the lot.
I know that's not as serious as scrub jays but still...we're not going to buy the lot.
I love G tortoises and hope the person who does buy the lot doesn't bulldoze over it.

I am torn about whether to contact the county to report it. I don't want to hurt the owner who I've heard is in financial difficulty and maybe foreclosure. I'll have to think about it.

You are no longer allowed to bulldoze gopher tortoises in Florida (FWC bans entombment of gopher tortoises : Local : Naples Daily News)
I would not recommend purchasing any lot with a burrow on it. There are enough lots available in the area that you can find another one that would suit your needs.

[jbravo]

Originally Posted by wbowley

You are no longer allowed to bulldoze gopher tortoises in Florida (FWC bans entombment of gopher tortoises : Local : Naples Daily News)
I would not recommend purchasing any lot with a burrow on it. There are enough lots available in the area that you can find another one that would suit your needs.

Thanks for the heads up. Didn't know that.

[discontented lot owner]

MOD EditMr Bravo Im DISCONTENTED LOT OWNER and I am not under any IP adress other than DISCONTENTED LOT OWNER. MOD Edit
I am really impressed that this thread is still going and that means that there is alot of discontent out there concerning this issue, and we can speak freely about it, and obtain information about defending ourselves, and recovering claims that are due to us because of government actions. I am delighted to hear about millions being awarded over those 18 lots. That means that there is HOPE for all of us discontented lot owners.

[discontented lot owner]

Originally Posted by jimini

Scrub Jay lot owners,
I own several lots in the charlotte county area, I've owned them for over 12 years. I had dreams of moving to the area to build my home on one of the lots and start another to move into after 2 years. There wasn't any lot in charlotte county that was designated as any type of habitat. I've paid taxes on these lots for all these years with the last couple of years super high because of all the land speculation. Now they're in scrub jay habitat, I feel like the goverment has screwed me. I wish I had some legal recourse to gain my lots back or adequate compensation for them.
The FWC and the state of Florida had all kinds of chances to buy large (thousands of acres) in nearby areas that they could have used as scrub jay/ state park/ whatever, before the land prices went crazy, now, developers have purchased the lands and are planning on thousands of new homes. Developers in Dade County just got a settlement from the State for 7.2 million dollars for 18 lots the state wouldn't let them build on, any lawyers interested now?

Thank you sooo much Jimini
I am the original DISCONTENTED LOT OWNER and I here to report that your thread has given me real hope about recovering loses from scrubjays through the Bert Harris Act. I will admit that I sorta lost interest in a class action lawsuit(was the 7.2 million dollar lawsuit class action?) until I read your thread and I would love to know the name of the lawfirm that handled this case. (Im sure that alot of other discontented people would love to know it too) I have read so many other stories that have almost convinced me that lawers win, and we loose. But your thread GIVES HOPE! I really love those numbers
Thanks

[jbravo]

Originally Posted by discontented lot owner

Mr Bravo Im DISCONTENTED LOT OWNER and I am not under any IP adress other than DISCONTENTED LOT OWNER.....

Strange. You quote from something I wrote over a year ago!
How about replying to something I wrote weeks ago:

The scrub jay issue is and was a KNOWN issue and was posted online for all to see with a big boldface disclaimer stating that the birds could move to new habitats and therefore make those lots unbuildable.
Again, this was KNOWN beforehand.
Therefore, I ask one question and only one question: how is this an abuse of governmental powers, when up front the government told you that your lot COULD be unbuildable, even if at time of the sale there were no scrub jays?

There were color coded maps, with known habitats and areas where they COULD be and then a disclosure that not even this guaranteed that the lot would be scrub jay free.

To reword the question, were not the rules clear, were the rules changed?

I believe that I have a right to voice an opinion here, only mine, which all are free to disagree with; however, I did in 05/early 06 look into buying in that area, bought elsewhere (Lake County) and finished building and got COd in 07. The scrub jay issue was one of three factors that made it unappetizing to buy a lot there. I repeat this was KNOWN, and I posted so a year ago that this was true.

Originally Posted by discontented lot owner

7.2 million dollar lawsuit class action? I would love to know the name of the lawfirm that handled this case.

So would I, post a link. Since it's not in google news anywhere. I mean, share this "news" who, what and where?



It appears that you made a very bad investment.
Why should tax payers help you out?

You have never actually replied to any specific point that I posted. I will not fall into your trap of attacking you personally, though you choose to do so.
Finally, you imply cowardice on my part, funny, as I e-mailed you, I now share with the forum, my screen name is my real name. My location is well known, I'm probably the easiest guy to find in all of city-data!
But enough about the personal attacks. You have never addressed my points; rather, you attack.
My motivation: I'm for protecting endangered species and against tax payer bailouts of those that made unwise investments.

[discontented lot owner]

Originally Posted by jbravo

Strange. You quote from something I wrote over a year ago!
How about replying to something I wrote weeks ago:

The scrub jay issue is and was a KNOWN issue and was posted online for all to see with a big boldface disclaimer stating that the birds could move to new habitats and therefore make those lots unbuildable.
Again, this was KNOWN beforehand.
Therefore, I ask one question and only one question: how is this an abuse of governmental powers, when up front the government told you that your lot COULD be unbuildable, even if at time of the sale there were no scrub jays?

There were color coded maps, with known habitats and areas where they COULD be and then a disclosure that not even this guaranteed that the lot would be scrub jay free.

To reword the question, were not the rules clear, were the rules changed?

I believe that I have a right to voice an opinion here, only mine, which all are free to disagree with; however, I did in 05/early 06 look into buying in that area, bought elsewhere (Lake County) and finished building and got COd in 07. The scrub jay issue was one of three factors that made it unappetizing to buy a lot there. I repeat this was KNOWN, and I posted so a year ago that this was true.



So would I, post a link. Since it's not in google news anywhere. I mean, share this "news" who, what and where?



It appears that you made a very bad investment.
Why should tax payers help you out?

You have never actually replied to any specific point that I posted. I will not fall into your trap of attacking you personally, though you choose to do so.
Finally, you imply cowardice on my part, funny, as I e-mailed you, I now share with the forum, my screen name is my real name. My location is well known, I'm probably the easiest guy to find in all of city-data!
But enough about the personal attacks. You have never addressed my points; rather, you attack.
My motivation: I'm for protecting endangered species and against tax payer bailouts of those that made unwise investments.

MOD Edit
1 I know and have known your opinons on scrubjay
2.I know the scrubjay law thanks to you and to this blog.
3.I feel it doesnt really matter when the scrubjay law was passed, what really matters is the intrusive nature of government encroaching on OUR RIGHT TO OWN PROPERTY.
4.Just because the scrubjay law was in place before anyone purchased lots in Charlotte County does not make the scrubjay policy right. (nazism was adopted in Germany way before the scrubjay ordinance-does that make Nazism right?)
5. Shall I die my hair blonde and get some blue contact lenses so I can conform to the new order comming up after the scrubjay doctrine??
Im here to get help for me and other lot owners victimized from the government. I have heard enough of your opinion (by the way the enforcement of the scrubjay ordinance uses a heck of alot of taxpayers money), and I would really appreciate it if you could be a gentleman MOD Edit
Thank You

[deegers]

Since this thread has gone terribly down a different road, I am closing it and pending it for review. Thanks.