The myth of "indian" in the family. (Africa, father, German)

[tassity22]

Originally Posted by Bernie20

It does happen due to people's confusion with terms like "Scots-Irish". Some people have mistakenly thought they were Irish when they were actually more Scots. You can also get results with the "Ireland" category and not actually have any Irish ancestry at all. I do think people need a solid paper trail but it will be interesting to see what LivingDNA come up with. There are quite a few people waiting on results that have a pretty solid paper trail of where their ancestry is in England, Wales etc. I'm waiting on results myself and LivingDNA use the PoBI dataset.

My husband is from Scotland. He says Scottish and Irish are the same race of people (which is one reason they look so much alike). I'm pretty sure a DNA ancestry test cannot distinguish between Scottish and Irish people.

[Bernie20]

Originally Posted by tassity22

My husband is from Scotland. He says Scottish and Irish are the same race of people (which is one reason they look so much alike). I'm pretty sure a DNA ancestry test cannot distinguish between Scottish and Irish people.

Irish and West Scots are in fact the closest genetically. Even using Gedmatch it is common for Irish people to get Orcadian, West Scottish etc and vice versa. The Highlanders are the population most similar to the Irish as per the People of the British Isles project. Lowland Scots are more similar to Northern English. All those populations though are extremely close and this is why the LivingDNA results will be very interesting.

Just to illustrate my point here is my Eurogenes K15

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 37.04
2 Atlantic 29.88
3 Baltic 11.89
4 Eastern_Euro 8.75
5 West_Asian 5.16
6 West_Med 4.95
7 Amerindian 1.15
8 Red_Sea 1.10


Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Irish @ 3.425280
2 West_Scottish @ 3.557808
3 North_Dutch @ 4.181393
4 Danish @ 4.453959
5 Orcadian @ 5.505360
6 Southeast_English @ 5.676529
7 North_German @ 5.882824
8 Southwest_English @ 7.466283
9 Norwegian @ 8.417722
10 West_Norwegian @ 8.735489
11 Swedish @ 9.296607
12 South_Dutch @ 11.184519
13 West_German @ 12.499153
14 North_Swedish @ 12.662151
15 East_German @ 16.492691
16 French @ 16.524723
17 Southwest_Finnish @ 17.903034
18 Austrian @ 21.142027
19 Finnish @ 21.647963
20 Hungarian @ 21.914810

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +50% North_Dutch @ 3.203073


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +25% North_Dutch +25% West_Scottish @ 3.143203


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Irish + North_German + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.125094
2 North_German + West_Scottish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.128713
3 Irish + Irish + North_Dutch + West_Scottish @ 3.143203
4 Irish + Irish + North_German + Orcadian @ 3.144938
5 Irish + Irish + Irish + North_Dutch @ 3.150105
6 Irish + North_German + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 3.159487
7 Irish + Irish + North_German + West_Scottish @ 3.182833
8 North_Dutch + North_German + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.183386
9 Irish + North_Dutch + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.193700
10 Irish + North_Dutch + North_German + West_Scottish @ 3.195021
11 North_German + Orcadian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.202463
12 Irish + Irish + North_Dutch + North_Dutch @ 3.203073
13 Danish + Irish + Irish + North_Dutch @ 3.235043
14 Danish + Irish + Irish + Irish @ 3.235556
15 Irish + North_Dutch + North_Dutch + West_Scottish @ 3.238354
16 Danish + Irish + Irish + West_Scottish @ 3.248949
17 Irish + Irish + North_Dutch + North_German @ 3.252259
18 Irish + Irish + Irish + Swedish @ 3.254036
19 Irish + North_Dutch + North_German + Orcadian @ 3.259177
20 Irish + Irish + Irish + North_German @ 3.268316

This is my brother's Eurogenes K15

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 38.02
2 Atlantic 28.50
3 Eastern_Euro 9.98
4 Baltic 9.12
5 West_Med 7.56
6 West_Asian 5.23


Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Orcadian @ 3.213047
2 West_Scottish @ 3.800461
3 North_Dutch @ 4.402150
4 Danish @ 4.449411
5 Irish @ 4.582540
6 Southeast_English @ 4.794890
7 Southwest_English @ 5.671537
8 North_German @ 7.275247
9 Norwegian @ 7.684995
10 West_Norwegian @ 7.760220
11 Swedish @ 9.670259
12 South_Dutch @ 10.405709
13 West_German @ 10.965762
14 North_Swedish @ 12.858974
15 French @ 15.257990
16 East_German @ 16.842857
17 Southwest_Finnish @ 19.094088
18 Austrian @ 21.992764
19 Hungarian @ 22.408499
20 Finnish @ 22.635736

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Danish +50% Orcadian @ 2.700008


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Danish +25% Orcadian +25% Orcadian @ 2.700008


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 North_German + Orcadian + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.468943
2 Danish + Orcadian + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.606963
3 Danish + Orcadian + Orcadian + Southwest_English @ 2.664194
4 Danish + Danish + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.700008
5 Danish + Orcadian + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 2.719922
6 Danish + Orcadian + Orcadian + Southeast_English @ 2.725399
7 Danish + North_Dutch + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.767285
8 North_German + Orcadian + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 2.777022
9 Danish + Irish + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.791629
10 North_Dutch + Orcadian + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 2.816727
11 North_Dutch + Orcadian + Orcadian + Southeast_English @ 2.820725
12 North_Dutch + Orcadian + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.830852
13 North_Dutch + Orcadian + Orcadian + Southwest_English @ 2.836830
14 Danish + North_German + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.876363
15 Irish + North_Dutch + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.906238
16 Norwegian + Orcadian + Orcadian + Southeast_English @ 2.906962
17 North_German + Orcadian + Orcadian + Southwest_English @ 2.914979
18 North_Dutch + North_German + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.926702
19 Norwegian + Orcadian + Orcadian + Southwest_English @ 2.933666
20 North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.943340

So yes the Irish and Scots are indeed very close populations genetically.

[Roselvr]

Originally Posted by Bernie20

Irish and West Scots are in fact the closest genetically. Even using Gedmatch it is common for Irish people to get Orcadian, West Scottish etc and vice versa. The Highlanders are the population most similar to the Irish as per the People of the British Isles project. Lowland Scots are more similar to Northern English. All those populations though are extremely close and this is why the LivingDNA results will be very interesting.

Just to illustrate my point here is my Eurogenes K15

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 37.04
2 Atlantic 29.88
3 Baltic 11.89
4 Eastern_Euro 8.75
5 West_Asian 5.16
6 West_Med 4.95
7 Amerindian 1.15
8 Red_Sea 1.10


Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Irish @ 3.425280
2 West_Scottish @ 3.557808
3 North_Dutch @ 4.181393
4 Danish @ 4.453959
5 Orcadian @ 5.505360
6 Southeast_English @ 5.676529
7 North_German @ 5.882824
8 Southwest_English @ 7.466283
9 Norwegian @ 8.417722
10 West_Norwegian @ 8.735489
11 Swedish @ 9.296607
12 South_Dutch @ 11.184519
13 West_German @ 12.499153
14 North_Swedish @ 12.662151
15 East_German @ 16.492691
16 French @ 16.524723
17 Southwest_Finnish @ 17.903034
18 Austrian @ 21.142027
19 Finnish @ 21.647963
20 Hungarian @ 21.914810

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +50% North_Dutch @ 3.203073


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +25% North_Dutch +25% West_Scottish @ 3.143203


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Irish + North_German + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.125094
2 North_German + West_Scottish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.128713
3 Irish + Irish + North_Dutch + West_Scottish @ 3.143203
4 Irish + Irish + North_German + Orcadian @ 3.144938
5 Irish + Irish + Irish + North_Dutch @ 3.150105
6 Irish + North_German + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 3.159487
7 Irish + Irish + North_German + West_Scottish @ 3.182833
8 North_Dutch + North_German + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.183386
9 Irish + North_Dutch + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.193700
10 Irish + North_Dutch + North_German + West_Scottish @ 3.195021
11 North_German + Orcadian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 3.202463
12 Irish + Irish + North_Dutch + North_Dutch @ 3.203073
13 Danish + Irish + Irish + North_Dutch @ 3.235043
14 Danish + Irish + Irish + Irish @ 3.235556
15 Irish + North_Dutch + North_Dutch + West_Scottish @ 3.238354
16 Danish + Irish + Irish + West_Scottish @ 3.248949
17 Irish + Irish + North_Dutch + North_German @ 3.252259
18 Irish + Irish + Irish + Swedish @ 3.254036
19 Irish + North_Dutch + North_German + Orcadian @ 3.259177
20 Irish + Irish + Irish + North_German @ 3.268316

This is my brother's Eurogenes K15

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 38.02
2 Atlantic 28.50
3 Eastern_Euro 9.98
4 Baltic 9.12
5 West_Med 7.56
6 West_Asian 5.23


Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Orcadian @ 3.213047
2 West_Scottish @ 3.800461
3 North_Dutch @ 4.402150
4 Danish @ 4.449411
5 Irish @ 4.582540
6 Southeast_English @ 4.794890
7 Southwest_English @ 5.671537
8 North_German @ 7.275247
9 Norwegian @ 7.684995
10 West_Norwegian @ 7.760220
11 Swedish @ 9.670259
12 South_Dutch @ 10.405709
13 West_German @ 10.965762
14 North_Swedish @ 12.858974
15 French @ 15.257990
16 East_German @ 16.842857
17 Southwest_Finnish @ 19.094088
18 Austrian @ 21.992764
19 Hungarian @ 22.408499
20 Finnish @ 22.635736

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Danish +50% Orcadian @ 2.700008


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Danish +25% Orcadian +25% Orcadian @ 2.700008


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 North_German + Orcadian + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.468943
2 Danish + Orcadian + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.606963
3 Danish + Orcadian + Orcadian + Southwest_English @ 2.664194
4 Danish + Danish + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.700008
5 Danish + Orcadian + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 2.719922
6 Danish + Orcadian + Orcadian + Southeast_English @ 2.725399
7 Danish + North_Dutch + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.767285
8 North_German + Orcadian + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 2.777022
9 Danish + Irish + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.791629
10 North_Dutch + Orcadian + Orcadian + West_Scottish @ 2.816727
11 North_Dutch + Orcadian + Orcadian + Southeast_English @ 2.820725
12 North_Dutch + Orcadian + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.830852
13 North_Dutch + Orcadian + Orcadian + Southwest_English @ 2.836830
14 Danish + North_German + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.876363
15 Irish + North_Dutch + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.906238
16 Norwegian + Orcadian + Orcadian + Southeast_English @ 2.906962
17 North_German + Orcadian + Orcadian + Southwest_English @ 2.914979
18 North_Dutch + North_German + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.926702
19 Norwegian + Orcadian + Orcadian + Southwest_English @ 2.933666
20 North_Dutch + North_Dutch + Orcadian + Orcadian @ 2.943340

So yes the Irish and Scots are indeed very close populations genetically.

Thanks, am new to testing, haven't heard of the site. Do they ever have sales?

https://www.livingdna.com/en-us

[tassity22]

They are having a lot of specials right now, 69 or 79 instead of 99 dollars for DNA testing. I'd do it now as they usually only run these sales around the end of the year.

[tassity22]

Also, I really don't believe I am 100% European, but who knows. I really want to know where my black hair came from. (And it's almost black, not dark brown). There has got to be something ethnic in me. It might be Native American or it could be African slave ancestry. It couldn't be Mediterranean or middle eastern heritage because there is none of that in my family tree and all my family is from the deep south. It is most likely Native American or African. And there really weren't many Italians or Spanish people in the deep south in earlier generations.

[PA2UK]

Originally Posted by tassity22

They are having a lot of specials right now, 69 or 79 instead of 99 dollars for DNA testing. I'd do it now as they usually only run these sales around the end of the year.

Ancestry.com has sales throughout the year, normally for holidays like mothers day, fathers day, etc. The sales are normally $79 or $89 - I only really see $69 for Black Friday/Cyber Monday, which has already passed.

FTDNA's sale is $59 for their autosomal DNA test right now. They must be losing a lot of business to Ancestry.com if they're pricing it that competitively, and Ancestry.com must be confident they don't have to lower theirs to $59 to compete.

23andMe never run sales to my knowledge and are currently $99 for the ancestry test, $199 for ancestry+health.

But I think Roselvr was asking about LivingDNA, which do not appear to have a sale right now. They also seem to only offer a combined autosomal DNA test plus mtDNA and for men, Y-DNA, for $159. There is no option to only buy their autosomal DNA test for a lesser cost. If they offered that, I might go for it but I've already done my mtDNA and my dad's Y-DNA at FTDNA.

[Roselvr]

Originally Posted by PA2UK

Ancestry.com has sales throughout the year, normally for holidays like mothers day, fathers day, etc. The sales are normally $79 or $89 - I only really see $69 for Black Friday/Cyber Monday, which has already passed.

FTDNA's sale is $59 for their autosomal DNA test right now. They must be losing a lot of business to Ancestry.com if they're pricing it that competitively, and Ancestry.com must be confident they don't have to lower theirs to $59 to compete.

23andMe never run sales to my knowledge and are currently $99 for the ancestry test, $199 for ancestry+health.

But I think Roselvr was asking about LivingDNA, which do not appear to have a sale right now. They also seem to only offer a combined autosomal DNA test plus mtDNA and for men, Y-DNA, for $159. There is no option to only buy their autosomal DNA test for a lesser cost. If they offered that, I might go for it but I've already done my mtDNA and my dad's Y-DNA at FTDNA.

Yes, I've already done ancestry when they had a sale this summer. Was asking about living DNA

[trobesmom]

Originally Posted by tassity22

Many people, especially in the deep south, were told they had Native American ancestry, but it was based on family legend that was unconfirmed and unverified. And they all say it was "Cherokee" which is interesting because there are probably hundreds of different tribes.


Also, many people seem to think if someone isn't blond and blue-eyed, that they must have Native American ancestry. I know quite a few people who live in the deep south who seem to believe that if someone has dark hair and dark eyes, that they are "non white". So they probably explained it away by saying the person has Native American ancestry. They could have just been of Italian descent or something. It's silly that people think this way, but they do.


I was told I had Native American ancestry due to being the only person in my family with brown eyes. I am getting my DNA tested soon and fully expect it to come back 100% European. I would be proud to have Native American ancestry, but the fact is, I don't believe that I do.

Tassity, that is so true. I was born and raised in the deep south, and my mother and other older family members assured me that I was Native American, maybe even on both sides. My biological father even looked Native American.

I took the Ancestry.com DNA test. Guess what? 37% Scandanavian! Yep, lol. Found out that Scandanavians can have dark hair and green eyes (like I do). I am also Italian, Irish, Northern European and even 3% African American. Native American? Less than 1%. Could have knocked me over with a feather.

[Bernie20]

Originally Posted by Roselvr

Yes, I've already done ancestry when they had a sale this summer. Was asking about living DNA

LivingDNA are really very new and I think they've been swamped at the moment. Some people will start getting results in January so it should be interesting to see how they breakdown British and Irish ancestry. They are also working on getting a regional Irish database. They are using the People of the British Isles dataset and this is how the PoBI broke down their results. I'll post some more information when I see some results.

[residinghere2007]

Originally Posted by Bernie20

Yes Obama has a whopping 3.91% Irish ancestry. He actually has a lot more English ancestry. It is also obvious that with Americans that they very rarely have ancestry from just one country so all those "Irish Americans" are most likely to have English, German etc as well. So I do agree that it is misleading. What I was surprised to recently learn is that Muhammad Ali who received such a rapturous welcome in Ireland due to an apparent ancestor Abe Grady being from Co Clare does not in fact have any Irish ancestry at all.

Muhammad Ali: Boxer's ancestral Irish town pays tribute after death - BBC News

Not sure how they could have got it so wrong and I was a bit disappointed that he didn't have Irish ancestry after all.

Muhammad Ali

The only well known Americans that have nearly all Irish ancestry are Stephen Colbert, Bill O'Reilly (and they both also have a very small amount of English ancestry) and Conan O'Brien. It is very rare to find Americans of full Irish ancestry especially in this day and age.

The bold is interesting as I do remember when Ali visited his "ancestral" town!

I reviewed the link you shared and honestly, I don't think it is conclusive that just because the name "Abraham Grady" or "Abe Grady" wasn't found on censuses as Irish means that he wasn't Irish.

Did Ali have a genetic DNA ancestry test performed that showed Irish ancestry? I'll have to look it up later when I need something to do!

But I'll note that many times if a white person married a black person, they were labeled as black or negro or mulatto on a census document. Many of my own ancestors who were inter-racial married couples had that done more than once, one or both were either labeled at white or negro/black and then the next one would have a different color/race listed. So census info can be wrong for multiple years. Also, we don't know if he went by another name or if Abraham was the middle name. I have an ancestor who I thought was named Nathan but found out he went by his middle name of Bailey and it took me years to find him but sure enough, I did and on every census from 1830 through 1880 (and even on Canadian censuses) he was listed as Bailey and not Nathan except for in 1850. Luckily he was married to the same woman for many years and had a lot of children with non-popular names and so I could trace them once I used Bailey instead of Nathan. What connected the dots for me was getting some deed information for some property he sold in PA an it said Nathan Bailey ____. So I looked up both names and up popped all of information!

I did see that there was an Abe Grady with a death certificate in Kentucky via family search but they did not have an image of it to review. He died in 1922 it stated.

Also, I looked up the tree someone did for the Ali/Clay family and it looked pretty bad lol. So I wouldn't doubt that the Irish thing is incorrect as they had a lot of gaping holes in that tree even with more recent ancestors to Muhammed Ali. But just wanted to point out that many times the race of someone was wrong.

I mentioned that one of my paternal grandmothers has an Irish name. Her own great grandparents, one was born in England and one in Ireland according to info from my cousin who researches this line. They have a lot of documentation on this line as well. Their daughter married a "mulatto" man and on almost every census until the 1940 census, she was also labeled as "mulatto" and later "black/negro" when she was not - she was entirely white. Her parents were immigrants from Europe. On her death certificate, it states she was "white" and lists her parents and where they were born. She was buried by a "black" funeral home though so was mentioned in the "colored" section of a local newspaper with an obit when she died.

Originally Posted by tassity22

My husband is from Scotland. He says Scottish and Irish are the same race of people (which is one reason they look so much alike). I'm pretty sure a DNA ancestry test cannot distinguish between Scottish and Irish people.

I have been told this as well. The father of my great grandmother mentioned above, she had Irish ancestry through her maternal grandmother but "Scots-Irish" or Scottish through her father's line. Her maiden name was Scottish. The Scottish line I also have a lot of information on since that whole family is "really" into genealogical research and have been since the early 1900s. Family repeatedly verify and add to the family tree. It goes back to the 1600s and the immigration of a Scottish man who married a mulatto woman in Colony of Virginia.