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I understand all that but my point was that the intentions of these private DNA companies has nothing to do with Hitler's motives and intentions. None of the DNA companies are interested in "identifying racial purity".
And I don't believe that was what the poster was inferring. The original poster dealt with concerns about genetic DNA testing/apparently from cultural influence as a child that lingers with her today. And the later post concerned the responses of those who saw no chance of abuse with DNA compilation. I agree the DNA companies are not looking to create lists of "undesirables" but that anything has the potential for misuse. Private or not . Look at the issue of privacy on a host of things, some of which governments, gone bad, have used for nefarious reasons.
That was what I was pointing out that a respondent on the thread pointed out that the usage of something such as heritage was used by Hitler. Eugenics was a biggie at the time, particularly in the US and Britain, Hitler just took it beyond sterilization and other approaches. Not lecturing those who know history, but since so much of history is taught so incompletely today and the younger the person on these forums, the more likelihood that they don't have any understanding of the slippery slope that exists and how many times advanced civilizations have engaged in activity that their ancestors would have deemed "impossible."
Just for the record, I don't think that my Jewish heritage affected my racial purity. I find it a great joy to be more than grafted! The Nazis, the Communists, the Socialists and so many more didn't seem to agree with that.
Will note that I still haven't done a DNA test lol!
I did post recently in the "surprises" thread that I found my maternal grandfather may have some native American ancestry due to some documentation I found of it via an obit. I talked to him about potentially doing a test and he also is skeeved about doing it lol. So we may never know for sure. He has a 1st cousin who is also very "into" genealogical research and he thinks she may do one or may have already done one so I'm going to check with her on that line of the family.
On the original topic, I do still believe that medical knowledge obtained through DNA could potentially cause issues in the future obtaining longterm care insurance and life insurance and that and just the uneasiness it causes me in my mind has made me not want to get it done. My family is pretty healthy in general but we do have some cases of kidney disease in the family that may be genetic and I don't want companies I buy insurance from to know that I have a chance of getting it since it may affect my rates. We also have cervical cancer in the family, I have 6 great or great great grandmothers on my paternal side who died from that disease but it can also be caused by STD infection in some instances and may not be genetic.
On eugenics and racial purity, I honestly never thought about that as I feel practically all people in this world are ethnically diverse in some way and that no one is 100% something.
And I don't believe that was what the poster was inferring. The original poster dealt with concerns about genetic DNA testing/apparently from cultural influence as a child that lingers with her today. And the later post concerned the responses of those who saw no chance of abuse with DNA compilation. I agree the DNA companies are not looking to create lists of "undesirables" but that anything has the potential for misuse. Private or not . Look at the issue of privacy on a host of things, some of which governments, gone bad, have used for nefarious reasons.
That was what I was pointing out that a respondent on the thread pointed out that the usage of something such as heritage was used by Hitler. Eugenics was a biggie at the time, particularly in the US and Britain, Hitler just took it beyond sterilization and other approaches. Not lecturing those who know history, but since so much of history is taught so incompletely today and the younger the person on these forums, the more likelihood that they don't have any understanding of the slippery slope that exists and how many times advanced civilizations have engaged in activity that their ancestors would have deemed "impossible."
Just for the record, I don't think that my Jewish heritage affected my racial purity. I find it a great joy to be more than grafted! The Nazis, the Communists, the Socialists and so many more didn't seem to agree with that.
I took MaryleeII's comment to mean she was saying we should all be careful because someone could take our DNA and use it in a way that Hitler would have. I was just saying I think that's extremely unlikely and not a realistic reason to not take a DNA test - that's all.
On the original topic, I do still believe that medical knowledge obtained through DNA could potentially cause issues in the future obtaining longterm care insurance and life insurance and that and just the uneasiness it causes me in my mind has made me not want to get it done. My family is pretty healthy in general but we do have some cases of kidney disease in the family that may be genetic and I don't want companies I buy insurance from to know that I have a chance of getting it since it may affect my rates. We also have cervical cancer in the family, I have 6 great or great great grandmothers on my paternal side who died from that disease but it can also be caused by STD infection in some instances and may not be genetic.
But in order for that to happen, insurance companies would need access to your DNA, which they don't have and it's highly unlikely they could ever access. They would need a court order which a judge would never give. Plus, my understanding is ObamaCare put an end to insurance companies being able to discriminate based on pre-existing conditions or family history and such. So there are laws from multiple angles preventing this. And if the law ever changes, well, it's probably not going to change overnight so you'd have time to delete your DNA results before it happened.
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On eugenics and racial purity, I honestly never thought about that as I feel practically all people in this world are ethnically diverse in some way and that no one is 100% something.
There is some truth to that. But there are certain groups or parts of the world where native people are typically 100% of that group or region. For example, according to AncestryDNA stats, a native of East Asia is typically 100% East Asian. A typical Native American is 100% Native American. A native of the pacific islands is typically 100% Pacific Islander. The typical Ashkenazi Jewish person is 96% Ashkenazi Jewish (not 100%, but very close).
Where you see the most mixing and diversity is in Europe (excluding Ashkenazi), especially Central/Western Europe, around the Middle East/Western Asia, and within Africa (the typical African native might be 100% African but is probably not 100% from one part of Africa).
Typically, the more isolated and/or insular a group is, geographically or otherwise, the less diverse the natives of that region/group are. For example, a typical native of Ireland is 95% Irish, while the typical native of Great Britain is 60% British. That's because Britain saw a lot more invasions, immigration, and trade with continental Europe than Ireland did in history. So the Irish are almost entirely Irish, while the British are more of a mix of British, Irish, Western (mainland) European, Scandinavian, and Iberian.
On the original topic, I do still believe that medical knowledge obtained through DNA could potentially cause issues in the future obtaining longterm care insurance and life insurance and that and just the uneasiness it causes me in my mind has made me not want to get it done.
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As our laws have not yet changed to protect your test results, that remains a valid concern.
But in order for that to happen, insurance companies would need access to your DNA, which they don't have and it's highly unlikely they could ever access. They would need a court order which a judge would never give. Plus, my understanding is ObamaCare put an end to insurance companies being able to discriminate based on pre-existing conditions or family history and such. So there are laws from multiple angles preventing this. And if the law ever changes, well, it's probably not going to change overnight so you'd have time to delete your DNA results before it happened.
On the bold, my specific issues are with longterm care insurance and life insurance. Those are not covered by ACA. Like Suzy mentioned above, some states have taken on this issue, but I still am on the fence about it until there is some sort of national law on the matter since I am certain that the state I live in currently, I will not live here for the rest of my life (I don't like to stay in one place).
I also have long term care insurance for my parents. Me testing and finding I have some sort of genetic condition and companies finding out about it could potentially have this same issue for my parents or even my siblings since we share our genetic makeup. And it is something I don't want to risk even though it seems miniscule and I admit is a miniscule issue.
However, I have worked as a consultant in public and private organizations, including medical organizations and I don't trust people with safeguarding my genetic markers or information due to me knowing that people in medical facilities can be inept and not accurately safeguard my information. There are also rules in HIPAA which do allow sharing of medical information to life insurance providers in particular or for specific reasons that could be interpreted to include genetic markers. There is always some way for these companies to connect your DNA to you even if they don't use your name. If there wasn't people would never know their results. They have it in a database and many places have that information on private servers or servers "in the cloud." Lots of information is stolen everyday and my work included projects with large IT components. So I am well aware that no information is completely safe of leaks to any group that wants access to that information.
ETA: On deletion, I also know that nothing is ever deleted completely.
On the bold, my specific issues are with longterm care insurance and life insurance. Those are not covered by ACA.
They still have no access to your DNA results and it's highly unlikely they ever could without your permission or a court order.
This, for example, is AncestryDNA's privacy policy about the matter:
"3. Will AncestryDNA disclose personal information to third parties?
AncestryDNA will not disclose personal information to third parties except in very limited circumstances which are set out below. Before AncestryDNA begins to transfer personal information to any third party acting as our agent, we will confirm that they have adopted, are subject to, or are contractually obligated to comply with the principles and objectives of this Privacy Statement.
i) In these scenarios: Examples of the limited scenarios where AncestryDNA may disclose personal information to third parties are: (a) with your knowledge and any relevant consents (for example, when you decide to share your Results with others); (b) as described in this Privacy Statement; (c) as may be required by law, regulatory authorities,or legal process;(d) as permitted to protect the rights or property of AncestryDNA, Ancestry Group Companies or other Users (including outside your country of residence); (e) to enforce our terms and conditions; (f) to prevent fraud or cybercrime; or (g) to permit us to pursue available remedies or limit the damages that we may sustain.
ii) To Ancestry Group Companies: We may share personal information with Ancestry Group Companies so that they may provide services to AncestryDNA and you (including to communicate with you) as described in this Privacy Statement, or provide the additional services of those Ancestry Group Companies to you, and/or for the purposes of connecting you to Users of the other websites operated by the Ancestry Group Companies. The Ancestry Group Companies are subject to similar privacy statements, which you should review. Additionally, as our business continues to grow and change, we might restructure, buy, or sell subsidiaries or business units. In these transactions, customer information is often one of the transferred assets, remaining subject to promises made in then prevailing privacy statements. Also, in the event that AncestryDNA, or substantially all of its assets or stock are acquired, transferred, disposed of (in whole or part and including in connection with any bankruptcy or similar proceedings), personal information will as a matter of course be one of the transferred assets.
iii) To your potential relatives: If AncestryDNA (or one of the Ancestry Group Companies) determines that you have a potential relative, you may be matched with that potential relative through the Service. Those potential relatives will be able to see how you are matched (including relevant family tree and/or potential relatives) and, depending on your privacy settings, other personal information, such as your ethnicity regions, your display name, or other profile information.
iv) Third party service providers: Under the protection of appropriate agreements, we may disclose personal information to third party service providers we use to perform various tasks for us, including for the purposes of data storage, consolidation, retrieval, analysis, or other processing, as well as effective management of customer information and to help us communicate with you. For example, we use third parties to process payments from you and to help manage the AncestryDNA Website and relationships with you. For performing the DNA Tests or storing samples we may use approved specialized laboratories or storage facilities. These third-parties are only given access to that information needed to perform their services, and are prohibited from using it for other purposes. These third parties may include affiliated and unaffiliated service providers in in the United States, Europe and in other jurisdictions.
Please note: If you click away from our AncestryDNA Website to visit the site of any third party advertiser or sponsor, you may be asked for your payment card or other personal information in order to purchase or use the products and services that those third parties offer. These companies have their own privacy and data collection practices. We have no responsibility or liability for these independent third party policies. You should therefore review their privacy notices carefully if you have concerns about how personal information may be used. In addition, when you visit any other sections of the Ancestry.com website, you will be subject to the Ancestry Privacy Statement which you should review and understand."
Basically, they will only share your private data with your consent, for legal reasons/court order, your relatives (necessary for the matching purposes), and your ISP (can't access your dna results without an ISP). There is NO type of insurance company that is included in that. Unless you give permission or they have a court order, no insurance company can legally access your DNA results. Other DNA companies have the same type of clauses. If they break their privacy policy and give out your information outside of one of these cases, like to an insurance company, you could sue them and probably win. Could they ever change their privacy police? Yes. But like I say, you could always delete your results if that happened.
As for nothing ever being completely deleted - that may be true, but someone would have to be REALLY motivated to get specifically your data in order to do that, and I'm sorry, but I don't think the entire world is out to get you personally. Additionally, digging up your deleted results without your permission would also probably violate their privacy policy and you could again sue them. Unless there was some kind of entire collapse of our legal system overnight, you really, really, really don't have to worry about any of this.
They still have no access to your DNA results and it's highly unlikely they ever could without your permission or a court order.
This, for example, is AncestryDNA's privacy policy about the matter:
"3. Will AncestryDNA disclose personal information to third parties?
AncestryDNA will not disclose personal information to third parties except in very limited circumstances which are set out below. Before AncestryDNA begins to transfer personal information to any third party acting as our agent, we will confirm that they have adopted, are subject to, or are contractually obligated to comply with the principles and objectives of this Privacy Statement.
i) In these scenarios: Examples of the limited scenarios where AncestryDNA may disclose personal information to third parties are: (a) with your knowledge and any relevant consents (for example, when you decide to share your Results with others); (b) as described in this Privacy Statement; (c) as may be required by law, regulatory authorities,or legal process;(d) as permitted to protect the rights or property of AncestryDNA, Ancestry Group Companies or other Users (including outside your country of residence); (e) to enforce our terms and conditions; (f) to prevent fraud or cybercrime; or (g) to permit us to pursue available remedies or limit the damages that we may sustain.
ii) To Ancestry Group Companies: We may share personal information with Ancestry Group Companies so that they may provide services to AncestryDNA and you (including to communicate with you) as described in this Privacy Statement, or provide the additional services of those Ancestry Group Companies to you, and/or for the purposes of connecting you to Users of the other websites operated by the Ancestry Group Companies. The Ancestry Group Companies are subject to similar privacy statements, which you should review. Additionally, as our business continues to grow and change, we might restructure, buy, or sell subsidiaries or business units. In these transactions, customer information is often one of the transferred assets, remaining subject to promises made in then prevailing privacy statements. Also, in the event that AncestryDNA, or substantially all of its assets or stock are acquired, transferred, disposed of (in whole or part and including in connection with any bankruptcy or similar proceedings), personal information will as a matter of course be one of the transferred assets.
iii) To your potential relatives: If AncestryDNA (or one of the Ancestry Group Companies) determines that you have a potential relative, you may be matched with that potential relative through the Service. Those potential relatives will be able to see how you are matched (including relevant family tree and/or potential relatives) and, depending on your privacy settings, other personal information, such as your ethnicity regions, your display name, or other profile information.
iv) Third party service providers: Under the protection of appropriate agreements, we may disclose personal information to third party service providers we use to perform various tasks for us, including for the purposes of data storage, consolidation, retrieval, analysis, or other processing, as well as effective management of customer information and to help us communicate with you. For example, we use third parties to process payments from you and to help manage the AncestryDNA Website and relationships with you. For performing the DNA Tests or storing samples we may use approved specialized laboratories or storage facilities. These third-parties are only given access to that information needed to perform their services, and are prohibited from using it for other purposes. These third parties may include affiliated and unaffiliated service providers in in the United States, Europe and in other jurisdictions.
Please note: If you click away from our AncestryDNA Website to visit the site of any third party advertiser or sponsor, you may be asked for your payment card or other personal information in order to purchase or use the products and services that those third parties offer. These companies have their own privacy and data collection practices. We have no responsibility or liability for these independent third party policies. You should therefore review their privacy notices carefully if you have concerns about how personal information may be used. In addition, when you visit any other sections of the Ancestry.com website, you will be subject to the Ancestry Privacy Statement which you should review and understand."
Basically, they will only share your private data with your consent, for legal reasons/court order, your relatives (necessary for the matching purposes), and your ISP (can't access your dna results without an ISP). There is NO type of insurance company that is included in that. Unless you give permission or they have a court order, no insurance company can legally access your DNA results. Other DNA companies have the same type of clauses. If they break their privacy policy and give out your information outside of one of these cases, like to an insurance company, you could sue them and probably win. Could they ever change their privacy police? Yes. But like I say, you could always delete your results if that happened.
As for nothing ever being completely deleted - that may be true, but someone would have to be REALLY motivated to get specifically your data in order to do that, and I'm sorry, but I don't think the entire world is out to get you personally. Additionally, digging up your deleted results without your permission would also probably violate their privacy policy and you could again sue them. Unless there was some kind of entire collapse of our legal system overnight, you really, really, really don't have to worry about any of this.
FWIW, I read contracts for a living as a part of my career and there are a LOT of red flags in the above that highlight exactly what I'm saying. As stated, I've worked with medical facilities and I am knowledgeable about contracts in this regard and I know that what many people think this says it doesn't really say. They basically are saying, yeah, they will protect your information, but if a regulatory rule or law, or some other outside entity wants it and asks for it, they will share it with and/or without your knowledge.
Also, in regards to insurance companies, there are "regulatory" rules that allow them to see your medical history and genetic DNA can be construed to be a medical history if they want it to be. There are many people denied life insurance in particular if it is known that they have been diagnosed with or they carry genetic markers for specific diseases, especially related to cancer. This sort of thing is already happening.
I bold and put in red things that stuck out to me in regards to the above terms, which is language I would not agree with at all in sharing my DNA. Also, again, nothing is every completely deleted. Also, which is highlighted in the terms above, companies many times merge or go under and dissolve. Ironically this morning I was watching CBS and there was a woman who had some sperm stored of her deceased husband and a lab "lost" 6 vials of sperm after they merged with another company. Merging and companies going under is when a lot of the mess happens.
But honestly, all of the red above, REALLY stood out to me because, as stated, I read a lot of contracts for companies I have worked for and I would NEVER suggest that they agree to any of those terms, especially the fact that they will be using third parties overseas and you cannot know for sure what they are doing with that information. And, as stated, life insurance providers can use regulatory rules/laws to ask for genetic information to determine one's insurability if they want to.
FWIW, I read contracts for a living as a part of my career and there are a LOT of red flags in the above that highlight exactly what I'm saying. As stated, I've worked with medical facilities and I am knowledgeable about contracts in this regard and I know that what many people think this says it doesn't really say. They basically are saying, yeah, they will protect your information, but if a regulatory rule or law, or some other outside entity wants it and asks for it, they will share it with and/or without your knowledge.
Also, in regards to insurance companies, there are "regulatory" rules that allow them to see your medical history and genetic DNA can be construed to be a medical history if they want it to be. There are many people denied life insurance in particular if it is known that they have been diagnosed with or they carry genetic markers for specific diseases, especially related to cancer. This sort of thing is already happening.
I bold and put in red things that stuck out to me in regards to the above terms, which is language I would not agree with at all in sharing my DNA. Also, again, nothing is every completely deleted. Also, which is highlighted in the terms above, companies many times merge or go under and dissolve. Ironically this morning I was watching CBS and there was a woman who had some sperm stored of her deceased husband and a lab "lost" 6 vials of sperm after they merged with another company. Merging and companies going under is when a lot of the mess happens.
But honestly, all of the red above, REALLY stood out to me because, as stated, I read a lot of contracts for companies I have worked for and I would NEVER suggest that they agree to any of those terms, especially the fact that they will be using third parties overseas and you cannot know for sure what they are doing with that information.
And do these people you advise about contracts know that you burn your hair after you take it out of your hair brush so that no one can steal it from your trash? Honestly, I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, you yourself say you're an abnormally paranoid person, and as such I have to question your rationale on something like this.
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And, as stated, life insurance providers can use regulatory rules/laws to ask for genetic information to determine one's insurability if they want to.
They can ask. But as per the privacy policy, they will not receive. There was a big fuss in the media when Ancestry gave DNA info to the police because they had a court order in a criminal investigation. Mostly, it was people thinking Ancestry just handed over the info and people were crying about privacy violation, when in reality, Ancestry refused to do so without a court order. Once the court order was in, they really had no choice. If the authorities like the police can't even get a hold of it without a court order, I'm not sure why you think insurance companies would be able to.
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