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The traditional AAVE is absolutely Southern in origin. Pidgins, creoles, and dialects that evolved outside of the South did not become mainstream nor did they pick up massive use outside of their home states. What is traditionally called AAVE today has its origin in the Lowland South.
LOL, then how did people who don't originate in the south and who lived in communities with other black people who were not from the south adopt BVE?
As I shared, I have very deep Pennsylvania ancestry. My own great grandmother was born in Ohio, as were both of her parents. Both of her parents have ancestry from Pennsylvania. My great grandmother was born in a city with less than 1000 black people with little southern black influence. My great grandmother spoke BVE.
I have nothing against southerners and I am well aware that prior to, and today, that the majority of black Americans live in the south so people automatically associate anything to do with black people with "the south."
I honestly was surprised to find out that BVE is very similar to other pidgin dialects in various parts of the US and Caribbean that are English speaking nations/territories. I do a lot of historical research of the Great Lakes in particular because I am from OH and am a pretty serious amateur genealogist, which is very much related to regional history. In the course of the pursuit of my hobby and via my own university education, I was provided a lot of information about "black English" and the fact that free black communities in the north spoke a "dialect" language that is nearly the same as what we consider BVE today and which is even similar to Gullah which is spoken in the video below.
On this point, linguists are quite divided. Some emphasize its English origins, pointing to the fact that most of the vocabulary of Ebonics is from English and that much of its pronunciation (e.g. pronouncing final th as f) and grammar (e.g. double negatives, "I don't want none") could have come from the nonstandard dialects of English indentured servants and other workers with whom African slaves interacted.
Others emphasize Ebonics' African origins, noting that West African languages often lack th sounds and final consonant clusters (e.g. past), and that replacing or simplifying these occurs both in US Ebonics and in West African English varieties spoken in Nigeria and Ghana. Moreover, they argue that the distinction made between completed actions ("He done walked") and habitual actions ("We be walkin") in the Ebonics tense-aspect system reflects their prevalence in West African language systems and that this applies to other aspects of Ebonics sentence structure.
Other linguists are drawn to the similarities between Ebonics and Caribbean Creole English varieties, for instance, the fact that both frequently drop is and are , and that both permit dropping word initial d, b, and g in tense-aspect markers (Caribbean examples include habitual/progressive (d)a, past tense (b)en, and future (g)on). These traits suggest that some varieties of American Ebonics might have undergone the kinds of simplification and mixture associated with Creole formation in the Caribbean and elsewhere. They might also suggest that American Ebonics was shaped by the high proportions of Creole-speaking slaves that were imported from the Caribbean in the earliest settlement periods of the thirteen original colonies.
On the red - again, it is not a "fact" that BVE originated in the south. Also, note that Africans were enslaved in other parts of the country, not just the south. Again, PA had slaves and their free black community was depicted as being speakers of BVE. Nearly all of the original 13 colonies had slavery or African indentured servants. The link between the Carribbean pidgin languages and BVE is also being explored today and is very interesting for me personally. People are unaware that it was cheaper for slaves to be transported from the Caribbean to the US. A majority of the slaves that came to the US did not come from Africa, they came from the Caribbean by way of Africa.
I also have been very interested in the fact that free black communities and people prior to the Civil War have been ignored a great deal by historians. They are getting more interest it seems today. I personally have been surprised that I have so much lineage not from the south as I didn't expect that to be the case based on the popular narrative of the "black experience" in America being descendants of southern slaves and getting to "the north" via the Great Migration. A few of my family lines follow this narrative, but a majority do not and a large amount of my ancestors were free people of color or where freed by gradual emancipation in PA in the early 1800s. So my own family and even the community I am from prior to the 1910s did not have a large southern influence but the community did speak BVE.
Not trying to argue or be combative. Just sharing some information that I have come across and hopefully it will be of interest to you. From my own research, I have discovered that free blacks prior to 1860 had very tight communities and neighborhoods if they were in urban areas based, like our modern era, on places of worship and schools. Due to that, they held onto their linguistic history just like segregation in the current era has caused a growth in the use of BVE in urban areas.
Many linguists now recognize, based on information found in old newspapers and negative depictions of blacks by whites in media sources in the antebellum period, that the free black community also spoke BVE and that it was even similar to Gullah spoken in the SE sea islands. It is theorized that indentured servants in the north and in the south who were African spoke a similar type of language and that the free black community actually were the originators of what is known as BVE. There were a lot of free blacks in VA and in NC as well, so if you want your southern influence, there you have it. Laws were passed that made it dangerous for free blacks to live in those state and they subsequently left. Many of my ancestors were also free people in VA and NC before moving to OH and IN in the early 1800s. Those sides of the family speak BVE as well. But BVE is a mix of African language structure and English primarily and was not historically based in any particular region. Even free blacks in Massachusetts, Delaware and Rhode Island are theorized to have spoken BVE as are those in New York state.
Last edited by residinghere2007; 12-20-2016 at 01:17 PM..
LOL, then how did people who don't originate in the south and who lived in communities with other black people who were not from the south adopt BVE?
As I shared, I have very deep Pennsylvania ancestry. My own great grandmother was born in Ohio, as were both of her parents. Both of her parents have ancestry from Pennsylvania. My great grandmother was born in a city with less than 1000 black people with little southern black influence. My great grandmother spoke BVE.
I have nothing against southerners and I am well aware that prior to, and today, that the majority of black Americans live in the south so people automatically associate anything to do with black people with "the south."
I honestly was surprised to find out that BVE is very similar to other pidgin dialects in various parts of the US and Caribbean that are English speaking nations/territories. I do a lot of historical research of the Great Lakes in particular because I am from OH and am a pretty serious amateur genealogist, which is very much related to regional history. In the course of the pursuit of my hobby and via my own university education, I was provided a lot of information about "black English" and the fact that free black communities in the north spoke a "dialect" language that is nearly the same as what we consider BVE today and which is even similar to Gullah which is spoken in the video below.
On the red - again, it is not a "fact" that BVE originated in the south. Also, note that Africans were enslaved in other parts of the country, not just the south. Again, PA had slaves and their free black community was depicted as being speakers of BVE. Nearly all of the original 13 colonies had slavery or African indentured servants. The link between the Carribbean pidgin languages and BVE is also being explored today and is very interesting for me personally. People are unaware that it was cheaper for slaves to be transported from the Caribbean to the US. A majority of the slaves that came to the US did not come from Africa, they came from the Caribbean by way of Africa.
I also have been very interested in the fact that free black communities and people prior to the Civil War have been ignored a great deal by historians. They are getting more interest it seems today. I personally have been surprised that I have so much lineage not from the south as I didn't expect that to be the case based on the popular narrative of the "black experience" in America being descendants of southern slaves and getting to "the north" via the Great Migration. A few of my family lines follow this narrative, but a majority do not and a large amount of my ancestors were free people of color or where freed by gradual emancipation in PA in the early 1800s. So my own family and even the community I am from prior to the 1910s did not have a large southern influence but the community did speak BVE.
Not trying to argue or be combative. Just sharing some information that I have come across and hopefully it will be of interest to you. From my own research, I have discovered that free blacks prior to 1860 had very tight communities and neighborhoods if they were in urban areas based, like our modern era, on places of worship and schools. Due to that, they held onto their linguistic history just like segregation in the current era has caused a growth in the use of BVE in urban areas.
Many linguists now recognize, based on information found in old newspapers and negative depictions of blacks by whites in media sources in the antebellum period, that the free black community also spoke BVE and that it was even similar to Gullah spoken in the SE sea islands. It is theorized that indentured servants in the north and in the south who were African spoke a similar type of language and that the free black community actually were the originators of what is known as BVE. There were a lot of free blacks in VA and in NC as well, so if you want your southern influence, there you have it. Laws were passed that made it dangerous for free blacks to live in those state and they subsequently left. Many of my ancestors were also free people in VA and NC before moving to OH and IN in the early 1800s. Those sides of the family speak BVE as well. But BVE is a mix of African language structure and English primarily and was not historically based in any particular region. Even free blacks in Massachusetts, Delaware and Rhode Island are theorized to have spoken BVE as are those in New York state.
Well the BVE that is associated with Black mainstream speech is SOUTHERN in origin. I think if the average American heard a Charleston Black person speak (aka a very Gullah influenced accent) they wouldn't associate that with America but rather Caribbean English.
One is more English/West African in origin (the Southern derived mainstream BVE) and the other is Irish/West African.
Well the BVE that is associated with Black mainstream speech is SOUTHERN in origin. I think if the average American heard a Charleston Black person speak (aka a very Gullah influenced accent) they wouldn't associate that with America but rather Caribbean English.
One is more English/West African in origin (the Southern derived mainstream BVE) and the other is Irish/West African.
Again, people associate all things "black" with southern blacks. This is because historically a majority of the black population has always lived in the south, save a few years after the 2nd wave of the Great Migration.
Accents are not BVE. It is the structure/grammar of the language being used that is BVE.
See example of grammatical aspects:
Quote:
AAVE grammatical aspects Aspect Example Standard Englishmeaning
Habitual/continuative aspect[52] He be working Tuesdays. He works frequently (or habitually) on Tuesdays.
Intensified continuative (habitual) He stay working. He is always working.
Intensified continuative (not habitual) He steady working. He keeps on working.
Perfect progressive He been working. He has been working. Irrealis He finna go to work. He is about to go to work.
The "example" portion is BVE/AAVE. This sort of wording does not depend on an accent. I am a university educated, Great Lakes native and I frequently use the "examples" shown in the above without a southern accent and absent of a the use of slang that is typically thought of as BVE/AAVE when it is not.
On the south in general, I'll note that southerners, per the thread title and what I shared earlier, they actually do speak in different accents and have regional differences. I lived in metro Atlanta for a long time and primarily lived in inner city Atlanta and native black people in Atlanta have a very different accent and speaking patterns compared to black people in Tennessee or Kentucky. Blacks from Louisiana also have regional speaking patterns and accents. Hell, even blacks in Atlanta IMO are different from blacks from southern Georgia in the way they speak. We won't even speak about the various speech patterns in Florida blacks, which are very different depending on where the person was raised/lives in.
However, all of us, know these examples above. The structure/grammar is BVE/AAVE and not the accent or regional influence. The grammatical structure is cannot be equivocally defined as "southern" and it is theorized that BVE began in the colonial period and as I stated above, all 13 colonies had slaves and/or African indentured servants so BVE grammatical structure cannot equivocally be stated to be southern in nature unless you consider that the first African indentured servants arrived in Virginia. Virginia was the first successful English Colony in America so by nature of that, all American English (we speak differently than the English themselves) is "southern" in origin .
A large amount of my ancestors, those not from PA, hailed from VA.
Again, people associate all things "black" with southern blacks. This is because historically a majority of the black population has always lived in the south, save a few years after the 2nd wave of the Great Migration.
Accents are not BVE. It is the structure/grammar of the language being used that is BVE.
See example of grammatical aspects:
The "example" portion is BVE/AAVE. This sort of wording does not depend on an accent. I am a university educated, Great Lakes native and I frequently use the "examples" shown in the above without a southern accent and absent of a the use of slang that is typically thought of as BVE/AAVE when it is not.
On the south in general, I'll note that southerners, per the thread title and what I shared earlier, they actually do speak in different accents and have regional differences. I lived in metro Atlanta for a long time and primarily lived in inner city Atlanta and native black people in Atlanta have a very different accent and speaking patterns compared to black people in Tennessee or Kentucky. Blacks from Louisiana also have regional speaking patterns and accents. Hell, even blacks in Atlanta IMO are different from blacks from southern Georgia in the way they speak. We won't even speak about the various speech patterns in Florida blacks, which are very different depending on where the person was raised/lives in.
However, all of us, know these examples above. The structure/grammar is BVE/AAVE and not the accent or regional influence. The grammatical structure is cannot be equivocally defined as "southern" and it is theorized that BVE began in the colonial period and as I stated above, all 13 colonies had slaves and/or African indentured servants so BVE grammatical structure cannot equivocally be stated to be southern in nature unless you consider that the first African indentured servants arrived in Virginia. Virginia was the first successful English Colony in America so by nature of that, all American English (we speak differently than the English themselves) is "southern" in origin .
A large amount of my ancestors, those not from PA, hailed from VA.
Ok fair enough. BVE is not an accent but the majority of Blacks in the US have Southern features to their speech.
Ok fair enough. BVE is not an accent but the majority of Blacks in the US have Southern features to their speech.
This is true primarily because the majority of black Americans actually are "southern."
But on the OP itself, I personally do consider it an insult when people say I "talk white" or "speak white" just because I don't have a southern accent. FWIW blacks and whites do this. When I lived in Atlanta, I was frequently told I "talk white" lol. I thought it was ridiculous considering my grandparents, including the great grandmother with PA ancestry who spoke BVE was always chiding me (until the year she died!) about me using "incorrect grammar" because I also use BVE.
But I don't have a southern accent. So even when I tell people "what I be doin at work all day" they would still say I "talk white" since I don't have even a hint of a southern accent. I can "do" one though now from various regions. I worked in a call center when I was a college student and we took calls from all over the south. I have mastered the "Atlanta" accent, which is just a lack of annunciation of words IMO lol. My family gets a kick out of me "talkin like I'm from Atlanta." My favorite southern accent is the Appalachian one from TN and KY. They sound like they are singing a great country song IMO. Except black people from Memphis, they have an accent IMO similar to Atlanta. And I won't even speak on Miami! A friend of mine who is black grew up in London and she transferred to the HBCU I attended in Atlanta from a college in Miami because she could not understand black people in Miami. She told me this when I was telling her how long it took me to understand blacks in Atlanta (about 6-12 months). She said she could never understand black people in Miami lol. She was English by way of Jamaica BTW (her parents are Jamaican).
This is true primarily because the majority of black Americans actually are "southern."
But on the OP itself, I personally do consider it an insult when people say I "talk white" or "speak white" just because I don't have a southern accent. FWIW blacks and whites do this. When I lived in Atlanta, I was frequently told I "talk white" lol. I thought it was ridiculous considering my grandparents, including the great grandmother with PA ancestry who spoke BVE was always chiding me (until the year she died!) about me using "incorrect grammar" because I also use BVE.
But I don't have a southern accent. So even when I tell people "what I be doin at work all day" they would still say I "talk white" since I don't have even a hint of a southern accent. I can "do" one though now from various regions. I worked in a call center when I was a college student and we took calls from all over the south. I have mastered the "Atlanta" accent, which is just a lack of annunciation of words IMO lol. My family gets a kick out of me "talkin like I'm from Atlanta." My favorite southern accent is the Appalachian one from TN and KY. They sound like they are singing a great country song IMO. Except black people from Memphis, they have an accent IMO similar to Atlanta. And I won't even speak on Miami! A friend of mine who is black grew up in London and she transferred to the HBCU I attended in Atlanta from a college in Miami because she could not understand black people in Miami. She told me this when I was telling her how long it took me to understand blacks in Atlanta (about 6-12 months). She said she could never understand black people in Miami lol. She was English by way of Jamaica BTW (her parents are Jamaican).
I am not Black but anywhere I go I can understand Blacks so far so it's curious that some Blacks can't.
I am not Black but anywhere I go I can understand Blacks so far so it's curious that some Blacks can't.
Are you southern? And especially have you lived in an inner city in a southern city and frequently communicated with people who were born/raised in those neighborhoods?
If you are southern, I do think you would have more "experience" than me when it comes to understanding an extremely muffled, lack of annunciation accent which is common in inner city Atlanta. I love the accent now after picking it up. FWIW, I went to an HBCU in Atlanta, which at the time was surrounding by housing project communities and I went to all of the stores in the neighborhood and I volunteered at the housing projects with the kids and elderly people. If you have not lived in a black neighborhood and been black around black people, then you probably, if you are not from these areas, have ever heard a "true" accent as many of them do sound better around white people and don't go so much into the native lingo/slang.
FWIW, I don't think this guy is from Atlanta as I can do the accent similar to him and I don't have that true Atlanta accent and IMO he doesn't either. He also annunciates much better than many people in Atlanta do who are from "the hood."
For the S. Florida accent think of Rachel Jenteal (sp?) the friend of Trayvon Martin who testified at his trial. That is the accent my English friend could not understand and I'll be honest, I cannot fully understand that one either.
Also don't know why you would think a "black" person understands every single black person in the country just because we're all black. I doubt every white person automatically understands every single white person in the country or never says "huh" when someone of a different regional accent speaks to them.
Are you southern? And especially have you lived in an inner city in a southern city and frequently communicated with people who were born/raised in those neighborhoods?
If you are southern, I do think you would have more "experience" than me when it comes to understanding an extremely muffled, lack of annunciation accent which is common in inner city Atlanta. I love the accent now after picking it up. FWIW, I went to an HBCU in Atlanta, which at the time was surrounding by housing project communities and I went to all of the stores in the neighborhood and I volunteered at the housing projects with the kids and elderly people. If you have not lived in a black neighborhood and been black around black people, then you probably, if you are not from these areas, have ever heard a "true" accent as many of them do sound better around white people and don't go so much into the native lingo/slang.
FWIW, I don't think this guy is from Atlanta as I can do the accent similar to him and I don't have that true Atlanta accent and IMO he doesn't either. He also annunciates much better than many people in Atlanta do who are from "the hood."
For the S. Florida accent think of Rachel Jenteal (sp?) the friend of Trayvon Martin who testified at his trial. That is the accent my English friend could not understand and I'll be honest, I cannot fully understand that one either.
Also don't know why you would think a "black" person understands every single black person in the country just because we're all black. I doubt every white person automatically understands every single white person in the country or never says "huh" when someone of a different regional accent speaks to them.
I am not Southern but I grew up in Chicago which to my understanding has more Southern originated Blacks than a lot of Northern cities.
And it is true there are some Whites who can't understand other Whites. It happened to me when I moved to Louisville. I have to repeat myself time to time which is crazy to me.
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