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Hispanic culture in Arizona and Texas are very similar, both rooted in Mexican culture. This isn't Miami vs. San Antonio. Go to San Antonio and Tucson. They're more alike than different.
New Mexico's Hispanic culture is a blend of Mexican culture (in the South) and Spanish culture (more common in the North of the State). But both of them are still quintessentially Southwestern in nature (using the bullets I cited above).
I suppose a Latino could be culturally Southern and an African American could be a Tex-Mex eating cowboy. But that's not the norm.
They are both heavily Mexican but are they the same areas of Mexico tho?
I used to spend many a summer building Adobe huts for habitat for humanity in Taos and spending many summers in santa Fe. Houston and Dallas are more similar to ATL than either of those.
The bulk of Texas are more similar to the South than New Mexico.
The map you posted showing the Texas cities in green also has Atlanta and it's burbs in green. ATL has a growing Mexican population does ATL all of a sudden going to be Southwestern?
This should be based on culture. Not strictly the blacks are southern, the Mexicans are Southwest. It doesn't work like that. The wild wild west, tumbleweed howdy partner version of Texas represents a small fraction of the state.
Edit: looking again at the map posted showing how Hispanic the Texas cities are, also shows just about every sizable city also in green. That's including the decent sized cities in Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, North Carolina....
Last edited by atadytic19; 08-13-2020 at 08:42 PM..
There is a decent argument why Maryland should be Southern politically. Maryland has a very steep Cities are Democrats, Suburban areas are split and rural areas are Republican. In New Hampshire and Massachusetts the rural areas are bluer than the Suburban areas.
2ndly the power of the counties are more significant in Maryland than in the North. The Political structures within Prince Georges County make like no sense in a New York context for example.
Then there is probably a climate argument too. Like Worcester or Albany gets like 60+ inches of snow while a place like Annapolis gets like 10, and Atlanta gets like 2.
The issue is people act like New Jersey is the "true Northeast" while a place like Massachusetts should be considered the True Northeast, because people think the default Southern state is like Alabama or Arkansas not Georgia or North Carolina
people think the default Southern state is like Arkansas
They do? Guess I'm out of touch. I always thought Arkansas was to the southeast as Ohio is to the northeast: sort of a western-transition state. More like Missouri and Oklahoma than like Georgia and South Carolina, which I consider the "true southern" states.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BostonBornMassMade
Its a real region culturaly ad historically but economically demographically and ideologically theyrek ind of worlds apart at this point. And growing further apart every year.
Half the people I work with live in MA and the other half lives in NH. This isn't happening in real life. If anything, metro Boston and southeastern NH have been becoming more and more entwined every year.
Last edited by Boston Shudra; 08-13-2020 at 11:40 PM..
Every county in green has more Latinos than Black.
Now look at Texas. The green counties are now the vast swathe.
The orange counties (Blacks exceed Latinos) is down to a handful. I wouldn't be shocked if in 20 years there will be a Latino/Black "Iron Curtain" at the Louisiana/Texas state line (with all the Louisiana border counties still having Blacks as the biggest minority, and all the Texas counties showing Latinos as the largest minority - if not the majority in many counties)
And the battleground (light green counties) are overwhelmingly Latino plurality.
You even have a county - Shelby County - that borders Louisiana and has more Latinos than Blacks as a % of total population.
Over the next decade, I wouldn't be shocked if 75% of those light green counties turn solid green.
It's not a competition between minorities though. The only difference between, 1980s San Antonio and 2010 San Antonio is that the whites went from a slight majority to a minority, I don't think their was ever a year where blacks outnumbered Mexicans and people of Mexican descent in San Antonio. In all of those decades mentioned, Houston, Dallas, San Antonio and Austin all doubled if not tripled in population and the black population was constant from 1980 to 2020 in basically all of those cities. The black population doubled in SA, tripled in Austin, tripled in Dallas and more than doubled in Houston.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Triangle
The Texas Triangle currently has 80% of the population of Texas, a decade ago it had 70%. Add in densely populated East Texas and you have around 85% of the population west of I-35 (Including the counties along I-35. Western Texas, which is heavily Latino is only a chunk of the remaining 15% of Texas. Even Western and Southern Texas which overlap slightly with the Texas Triangle as San Antonio is part of both Western and Southern Texas is the only majority Hispanic portion of the state and is culturally the most Southwestern and it's 25% of the state's population in 2020 and shrinking. Map of the Regions of Texas
The Upper Gulf Coast is the third most Hispanic region and has a Hispanic plurality in 2020, it's the 2nd most Southern Region after East Texas even though Central Texas, North Texas and The Panhandle are all less Hispanic.
Hispanics and Whites and Blacks can all be Southern. Sundown towns are part of a horribly racist history, their also 100% Southern even though the black population is near nil. A lack of Black people doesn't mean a lack of Southernness, just like Jackson, MS is a Southern city even though White people are basically nonexistent even in the metro area and Detroit being a very Black City doesn't suddenly make it Southern.
Even with the above said Texas is in no way in a demographic loss for Black folks, it was 12.0% Black in 1980 and in 2020 it's nearly 13.0% Black.
Here were the Blackest States in 1980 vs. 2020
New York- 2,400,000
California-1,820,000
Texas- 1,710,000
Illinois- 1,680,000
Georgia- 1,460,000
Florida- 1,340,000
North Carolina- 1,320,000
Louisiana- 1,240,000
Michigan- 1,190,000
Ohio- 1,080,000
Texas is now the largest state by black population and is only putting serious distance between itself and other growing 950,000 in 8 years, with Florida being next with 850,000, then NY with 750,000 then California with 700,000 and Georgia with 650,000 then North Carolina with 400,000 people then Virginia with 300,000 etcetera.
Take in mind Dallas is the fastest growing city numerically in the U.S and has a fast growing black population. Houston is the third fastest growing and Austin is the fastest growing major city percentage wise while San Antonio is in the top 10 for both categories. Even with the stable black numbers your currently seeing that's a massive increase in all people including black people statewide.
In summary, the state's Eastern Half, hell eastern Third is more populated by an 85-15 split than the rest of the state and it's only increasing, and the Eastern third is much more steeped in Southern Culture than Southwestern. Texas has much more in common with Louisiana culturally than it does with New Mexico. Texas was a frontier state but by acquiring slaves it became a Southern State and while it's being flooded by transplants including my family that doesn't make it Southwestern it just makes it a fast growing Southern State.
I'll Also say Oklahoma and Texas are as much Great Plains as they are Southwestern in terms of where people live. So both of them are Southern States overall imo, albeit Oklahoma is probably more debatable, but if you asked the majority of Texans whether were they live was Southwestern or Southern or another Region The South would probably cover like 60% of people, and 40% would be split 25-15 SW vs. Great Plains. The South could even be closing in on 70%, it really depends on what folks in Austin would say. Just over 50% of Texans live in just the Houston and Dallas areas, so when your talking Texans your talking Houstonians, Dallasites, Austinites, San Antonians of course other parts of the state are important when determining culture but I just named over 2/3rds of the State population.
They do? Guess I'm out of touch. I always thought Arkansas was to the southeast as Ohio is to the northeast: sort of a western-transition state. More like Missouri and Oklahoma than like Georgia and South Carolina, which I consider the "true southern" states.
Half the people I work with live in MA and the other half lives in NH. This isn't happening in real life. If anything, metro Boston and southeastern NH have been becoming more and more entwined every year.
Okay? southern NH isn’t representative of northern New England at all. It’s 1/2 counties (With some people consider an extension of metro Boston or southern New England anyway)
Furthermore you live in Essex County so that makes sense-iid expect that. You live on the border of New Hampshire.
Lastly Maine Vermont and New Hampshire have below average population density and are 90% white with one city over 100k. Combined 3.5 million people
MA CT RI are three of the 4 most densely populated states. They’re 70% or less white. 11.5 million people combined. What I mean is in terms of density and demographic lthey grow further apart. Even politically -Maine and New Hampshire move more and more into this weird libertarian, independent, sort of ‘rejection of the norm’ and are now swing states whereaS southern New England is solid blue establishment. We’re not electing Sununus and LePage’s.
Ideologically? the way Northern New England is anti billboard, Anti Big business, anti development but pro libertarian is very different than southern New England, which favors larger more powerful central government and more traditional democrats. Frankly there’s a whole host of issues and realities Southern NE deals with that Northern NE does not and it’s painful obvious how different they are.
100-200k people from NH working in Northern MA is irrelevant we’re talking Ideology demographics AND economic not just economic of one small part of one small state. Imagine how many people work over the border from another region-that’s just silly.
Southern NE is 4x more diverse with 3x as many people overall. And has more economic hubs and development is more spread out.
Southern New England has nearly 4 million people of color. Northern New England has less than 300,000. Southern New England is 4x more diverse and 3x more populous. Both areas have people of Irish descent but southern NE has more of an Italian and Portuguese slant while northern anew England has more of a French Canadian and English slant.
Where are these states demographically similar?
Last edited by BostonBornMassMade; 08-14-2020 at 05:19 AM..
^^you are never going to get entire regions that are uniform though.
Southern New England is more populous because it is the big city (Boston and spill over from NYC).
Southern New England will be more diverse because it's the area with the big city.
Southern New England will have bigger cities because it is the area with the big city.
Southern New England will be more democratic because that's the area of the region with the big city.
Take Pennsylvania, Ohio, Georgia, Texas, California... What do you see? The big city and the burbs are more populous, diverse, more blue.... Any area of any size will have the variety you speak of. CT, RI and MA are all tiny and Thurs the influence off Boston and NYC just covers the entire area.
Similarly VT and NH are tiny but isn't covered by any major metro. Maine is far flung from everything else.
Looking at New England as a state Boston would be the major metro of the state with suburbs stretching past it's borders and NH, VT, etc would be the more rural part of the state. Still the same general area though.
If we are going to divide areas so rigidly them we are basically going to have cities.
^^you are never going to get entire regions that are uniform though.
Southern New England is more populous because it is the big city (Boston and spill over from NYC).
Southern New England will be more diverse because it's the area with the big city.
Southern New England will have bigger cities because it is the area with the big city.
Southern New England will be more democratic because that's the area of the region with the big city.
Take Pennsylvania, Ohio, Georgia, Texas, California... What do you see? The big city and the burbs are more populous, diverse, more blue.... Any area of any size will have the variety you speak of. CT, RI and MA are all tiny and Thurs the influence off Boston and NYC just covers the entire area.
Similarly VT and NH are tiny but isn't covered by any major metro. Maine is far flung from everything else.
Looking at New England as a state Boston would be the major metro of the state with suburbs stretching past it's borders and NH, VT, etc would be the more rural part of the state. Still the same general area though.
If we are going to divide areas so rigidly them we are basically going to have cities.
These are whole states, not cities. Furthermore, if there’s no diversity in the entire northern region that’s a pretty huge indicator. Already when Massachusetts makes regional plans Governor Baker meets with the governors of Connecticut and Rhode Island we can not to meet with the governors in northern New England to make plans.
“ Transportation, improved data sharing and renewable energy were some of the issues where the governors of Connecticut, Massachusetts and Rhode Island said Tuesday they found common ground in their first private meeting with one another, promising to work together in the future.
The two Democrats and one Republican met for about two hours during a private lunch at Eastern Connecticut State University, an event organized by Connecticut Gov. Ned Lamont, a Democrat. The former businessman spoke of the importance working with Connecticut’s two southern New England neighbors.“
There are countless organizations and national companies that recognize “southern New England” (Triple A of Southern New England, Planned Parenthood of Southern New England, southern New England Fisheries, WPRI- “Southern New England News”)
90% of northern New England is outside of the Boston metro. It’s not commutable. They are not suburbs of Boston at all economically southern New England is knowledge and service bays where is Northern New England Inc. many more on farming, tourism, fishing, maple syrup logging etc. also not CT Transit RIPTA and MBTA -northern NE has no equivalent entities.
If New England were a big state like Ohio or Pennsylvania then you can say that in New Haven is like Philly and Bangor should be like Pittsburgh...but that doesn’t exist. If almost all the cities and all the development are concentrated in a group of three states.....even in Ohio there are major urban areas Northern middle and southern part of the state.
I understand people aren’t going to want to divvy it but it’s my personal qualm and I think it warrants discussion. I’m not bullish on it because as you said it is a small region as is. But demographically, ideologically and economically the two areas are probably more different now than they ever have been.(minus two counties in New Hampshire). If anything your post highlighted some very major fundamental differences between the two.
These are whole states, not cities. Furthermore, if there’s no diversity in the entire northern region that’s a pretty huge indicator. Already when Massachusetts makes regional plans Governor Baker meets with the governors of Connecticut and Rhode Island we can not to meet with the governors in northern New England to make plans.
“ Transportation, improved data sharing and renewable energy were some of the issues where the governors of Connecticut, Massachusetts and Rhode Island said Tuesday they found common ground in their first private meeting with one another, promising to work together in the future.
The two Democrats and one Republican met for about two hours during a private lunch at Eastern Connecticut State University, an event organized by Connecticut Gov. Ned Lamont, a Democrat. The former businessman spoke of the importance working with Connecticut’s two southern New England neighbors.“
There are countless organizations and national companies that recognize “southern New England” (Triple A of Southern New England, Planned Parenthood of Southern New England, southern New England Fisheries, WPRI- “Southern New England News”)
90% of northern New England is outside of the Boston metro. It’s not commutable. They are not suburbs of Boston at all economically southern New England is knowledge and service bays where is Northern New England Inc. many more on farming, tourism, fishing, maple syrup logging etc. also not CT Transit RIPTA and MBTA -northern NE has no equivalent entities.
If New England were a big state like Ohio or Pennsylvania then you can say that in New Haven is like Philly and Bangor should be like Pittsburgh...but that doesn’t exist. If almost all the cities and all the development are concentrated in a group of three states.....even in Ohio there are major urban areas Northern middle and southern part of the state.
I understand people aren’t going to want to divvy it but it’s my personal qualm and I think it warrants discussion. I’m not bullish on it because as you said it is a small region as is. But demographically, ideologically and economically the two areas are probably more different now than they ever have been.(minus two counties in New Hampshire). If anything your post highlighted some very major fundamental differences between the two.
There are also things that all 6 states share. Such as all 6 State University systems offer instate rates to students from other New England States studying a major not offered at their home state school. They share a state fair, they share a cable news station, as well as sports RSN's. Like the Celtics, Bruins and Red Sox all have their major and minor league teams in New England as well.
Also NH/ME/VT Tourism industry is almost entirely based on Visitors from Southern New England. The tourism is something that binds the region not something that makes Northern New England distinct.
also most importantly tons of people identify as New Englanders its so widespread its not uncommon for people from Massachusetts or Connecticut or New Hampshire to not actually know what their official state demonym is
There are also things that all 6 states share. Such as all 6 State University systems offer instate rates to students from other New England States studying a major not offered at their home state school. They share a state fair, they share a cable news station, as well as sports RSN's. Like the Celtics, Bruins and Red Sox all have their major and minor league teams in New England as well.
Also NH/ME/VT Tourism industry is almost entirely based on Visitors from Southern New England. The tourism is something that binds the region not something that makes Northern New England distinct.
also most importantly tons of people identify as New Englanders its so widespread its not uncommon for people from Massachusetts or Connecticut or New Hampshire to not actually know what their official state demonym is
Y’all. I’m not saying New England is a made up region. Let’s get that out of the way. Yea of course the states are binded (the Big E and NECN were good examples of that) but you're not talking about Demographics, Economics, or Ideology right now. Not one thing you mentioned falls under the parameters of the question. Baseball isn’t ideology.
Side note. New England states only offer instate tuition to the others because the Northern New England state universities needed more young people because they don’t have enough to fill their schools. I think this started around 2013 and it has since expanded.
There’s enough difference between Southern NE and Northern NE to differentiate to regions if you so choose.
As for tourism I’m split. Much of MEVTNH tourism is from southern New England but that’s also an acknowledgement that those places are fundamentally different in their offerings and lifestyle. They’re “other”
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