Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I don't see how we fairly calculate population of regions across the country when we're just choosing to add whichever cities we want for some, and for others breaking them up. Even the reduced nine county Bay area is 7,000 sq miles and runs over 150 miles from end to end at it's furthest points. Now granted it is pretty dense across a lot of that stretch, and Bay Area is more uniform in culture, but that would stretch like 3 MSA's in length going up and down the NE corridor.
DC's MSA is 5,600 sq miles, and more of the shape of a bubble, but the DC MSA literally gets cut off 18-20 miles to the East due to the presence of another large MSA. Same for Baltimore as it's MSA is getting "cut off" by DC's suburbs, but it doesn't resonate the same way as the suburbs around DC are a bigger urban stretch that are bleeding into places like Howard County etc. The whole area is a unique situation IMO.
DC and Baltimore are like two little "worlds" in a sphere literally overlapping at the end of their bubble, with each of their center points about 38 miles out, but in between there are shared amenities that do exist, and it is very populated. There's really no setup like this in the country other than maybe Dallas-Fort Worth. The difference is that Baltimore has been, and still is a self sustaining city with suburbs, a different accent etc., but this goes back to using the term "mega region" rather than "city". By definition the two could only be a "mega region" if ever, rather than "city".
So there is no perfect way to judge what exactly is the "city" when we refer to a city. It's just that most people judge that MSA is the best measure of what a city is. There are a few standouts in this regard. So let me ask you:
Is Riverside a separate MSA of 4 million? It's larger than Seattle if that is the case. I doubt you would grant that. It's more likely an extension of LA.
The CSA of the Bay area extends all the way to Stockton. How many people think Stockton is a part of the Bay area?
The Research Triangle is clearly one MSA in the eyes of almost everyone who looks at it. On paper it's two separate MSAs. But it's probably a better idea to combine the two into one.
DC may be a case where it is a little harder to tell because Baltimore has a small profile. It does have a much stronger history and identity as a separate city.
Most of the time we don't have this problem. I see that in a few instances the OMB defined a MSA in a way that people don't agree is the way. When this happens most of us try to correct for that because we all "know" that the CSA is not best way to judge fairly between areas. It just happens to be that we are stuck trying to use some sort of statistics.
The OMB gives us the best statistics so we go off of their numbers. If we didn't we wouldn't have any good way to judge between places. So in the vast majority of cases I think comparing MSAs is the best way. In a few cases I think it's not so. When it does diverge, the vast majority of us agree where the divergence is. I think that alone makes the case good enough for us to run with.
So there is no perfect way to judge what exactly is the "city" when we refer to a city. It's just that most people judge that MSA is the best measure of what a city is. There are a few standouts in this regard. So let me ask you:
Is Riverside a separate MSA of 4 million? It's larger than Seattle if that is the case. I doubt you would grant that. It's more likely an extension of LA.
The CSA of the Bay area extends all the way to Stockton. How many people think Stockton is a part of the Bay area?
The Research Triangle is clearly one MSA in the eyes of almost everyone who looks at it. On paper it's two separate MSAs. But it's probably a better idea to combine the two into one.
DC may be a case where it is a little harder to tell because Baltimore has a small profile. It does have a much stronger history and identity as a separate city.
Most of the time we don't have this problem. I see that in a few instances the OMB defined a MSA in a way that people don't agree is the way. When this happens most of us try to correct for that because we all "know" that the CSA is not best way to judge fairly between areas. It just happens to be that we are stuck trying to use some sort of statistics.
The OMB gives us the best statistics so we go off of their numbers. If we didn't we wouldn't have any good way to judge between places. So in the vast majority of cases I think comparing MSAs is the best way. In a few cases I think it's not so. When it does diverge, the vast majority of us agree where the divergence is. I think that alone makes the case good enough for us to run with.
Right, the CSAs are a bit wonky. Riverside and San Bernardino counties are massive and there are certainly communities that are a stretch to consider part of LA megacity such as Barstow or the cities of the Coachella Valley, but the far western parts of the county are part of a contiguous stretch of urbanized area. Meanwhile it's arguable that the Antelope Valley cities of Lancaster and Palmdale, while a part of Los Angeles county, are less of a continuation of that LA megacity than San Bernardino and the other cities of the San Bernardino Valley, itself an extension of the San Gabriel Valley, are.
What is the population of the nine county Bay Area combination? 7 million or so? Essentially that's about the same as the "expanded" DC region's influence today, without Baltimore and just adding exurbs or maybe with Howard County which is a split between the two. Merced and Stockon are like 120+ miles from either SF or Oakland are they not? That's the same distance as DC area to Philly, very hard to compare that to the compact East Coast.
Stockton to SF is 82 miles, Oakland to Stockton is 74 miles. (SF to Sac is only 88 miles.) Merced isn't even in the CSA. But I agree that the traditional 9-county Bay Area is the best measure of the metro area and it's only 7.75 million or so. The CSA includes San Joaquin, which includes Stockton, but only a small part of that county around Tracy really is strongly linked to the Bay Area. The CSA also includes Santa Cruz and San Benito counties because of those counties' connection to San Jose, but again only really the corridor south through Morgan Hill and Gilroy feels closely linked to the Bay. Maybe if you add those little appendages to the 9-counties you can get something like 8.5 million. It's still a ways off 10 million.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,128 posts, read 7,547,924 times
Reputation: 5785
Quote:
Originally Posted by OyCrumbler
Right, the CSAs are a bit wonky. Riverside and San Bernardino counties are massive and there are certainly communities that are a stretch to consider part of LA megacity such as Barstow or the cities of the Coachella Valley, but the far western parts of the county are part of a contiguous stretch of urbanized area. Meanwhile it's arguable that the Antelope Valley cities of Lancaster and Palmdale, while a part of Los Angeles county, are less of a continuation of that LA megacity than San Bernardino and the other cities of the San Bernardino Valley, itself an extension of the San Gabriel Valley, are.
Exactly. I spent time in Palm Springs/Palm Desert earlier this year when I was out there, and did the drive from LA/Glendale. Of course immediate Riverside/San Bernardino are right there as a part of the LA urban extension. So "LA" is essentially larger than the 13/14 million it's MSA suggests. But all of Riverside County is not LA. The Coachella Valley is simply too far away to be considered Los Angeles, and that same stretch on the East Coast would span 3 metro areas from end to end. I'd call it all the "SoCal mega region" if we're giving it a name, but not "LA" or "LA's sphere".
Stockton to SF is 82 miles, Oakland to Stockton is 74 miles. (SF to Sac is only 88 miles.) Merced isn't even in the CSA. But I agree that the traditional 9-county Bay Area is the best measure of the metro area and it's only 7.75 million or so. The CSA includes San Joaquin, which includes Stockton, but only a small part of that county around Tracy really is strongly linked to the Bay Area. The CSA also includes Santa Cruz and San Benito counties because of those counties' connection to San Jose, but again only really the corridor south through Morgan Hill and Gilroy feels closely linked to the Bay. Maybe if you add those little appendages to the 9-counties you can get something like 8.5 million. It's still a ways off 10 million.
2020 census has the Merced MSA meeting the threshold for inclusion in the CSA. It's wild.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,128 posts, read 7,547,924 times
Reputation: 5785
Quote:
Originally Posted by smashystyle
Stockton to SF is 82 miles, Oakland to Stockton is 74 miles. (SF to Sac is only 88 miles.) Merced isn't even in the CSA. But I agree that the traditional 9-county Bay Area is the best measure of the metro area and it's only 7.75 million or so. The CSA includes San Joaquin, which includes Stockton, but only a small part of that county around Tracy really is strongly linked to the Bay Area. The CSA also includes Santa Cruz and San Benito counties because of those counties' connection to San Jose, but again only really the corridor south through Morgan Hill and Gilroy feels closely linked to the Bay. Maybe if you add those little appendages to the 9-counties you can get something like 8.5 million. It's still a ways off 10 million.
Yea as mentioned it does include Merced in the Bay Area CSA. The total CSA population is over 9.7 million people now.
A CSA is a combined statistical area so literally in the name is the definition of what it is. It is a combination of cities/metro area. Only New York and Los Angeles are "mega" cities for the time being.
Houston and Dallas are far more compact than people give it credit for. Their are only 2 areas of Houston that could arguably, split-off and add significant population.
1. Is Conroe- just because their's basically one connection to the rest of the MSA, and The Woodlands is already considered a light-year away.
2. Galveston which has been historically connected to the city, for damn near the entire history of Houston as a city, due to the massive economic connections between those areas.
Conroe is far more contiguous with the city than say a place like Annapolis is with Washington, D.C.
The fact that NOVA is dominating suburban growth with Anne Arundel/Howard/PG/Montgomery growing from 2,660,0000 to 2,950,000.
NOVA- PW/Fairfax (county/city)/Loudoun/Arlington/Alexandria/Manassas/MP/Falls Church
went from 2,230,000 to 2,550,000. This shows how weak growth between the 2 cities, is when, Bowie is barely growing, Crofton's looked the same since 1980, and theirs still a massive chasm between Annapolis and Bowie.
If the area had a higher rate of growth and more PG/Howard/Anne Arundel and Montgomery county neighborhoods actually connected it would feel far more intertwined.
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
8,128 posts, read 7,547,924 times
Reputation: 5785
Quote:
Originally Posted by NigerianNightmare
Houston and Dallas are far more compact than people give it credit for. Their are only 2 areas of Houston that could arguably, split-off and add significant population.
1. Is Conroe- just because their's basically one connection to the rest of the MSA, and The Woodlands is already considered a light-year away.
2. Galveston which has been historically connected to the city, for damn near the entire history of Houston as a city, due to the massive economic connections between those areas.
Conroe is far more contiguous with the city than say a place like Annapolis is with Washington, D.C.
The fact that NOVA is dominating suburban growth with Anne Arundel/Howard/PG/Montgomery growing from 2,660,0000 to 2,950,000.
NOVA- PW/Fairfax (county/city)/Loudoun/Arlington/Alexandria/Manassas/MP/Falls Church
went from 2,230,000 to 2,550,000. This shows how weak growth between the 2 cities, is when, Bowie is barely growing, Crofton's looked the same since 1980, and theirs still a massive chasm between Annapolis and Bowie.
If the area had a higher rate of growth and more PG/Howard/Anne Arundel and Montgomery county neighborhoods actually connected it would feel far more intertwined.
I agree. Maryland seems very content on being very "bedroomy" in much of those in between suburbs that straddle the MSA borders. Of course geography-wise the Patuxent River watershed, plus the largest national wildlife refuge on this side of the Appalachians being sandwiched in between, doesn't aid urban/suburban sprawl either. If the development patterns on the East/Northeast suburbs of DC ,were as linear as the ones in NOVA, it would seamlessly connect to all of the Baltimore suburbs instead of being more leafy in some areas. It definitely doesn't have the same pattern of development you find in Texas. The Laurel, North Laurel, Maryland City, Columbia stretch is the one linear stretch in DC-Baltimore where you cross MSA's without any fanfare, and see no difference. But the areas you described it's a short, and albeit brief density drop from point A to B.
Last edited by the resident09; 10-01-2021 at 08:27 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
