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It's funny, because I just got back from a vacation in Charleston, SC, and I'd absolutely put it in that box. It was fun for a week, but I'd hate living there. The real estate prices are too high (at least in the urban parts of the city we stayed in...wouldn't want to live out in the suburbs), the job market simply isn't that dynamic, the city felt catered to a different kind of person than us (like preppy 25-40 year old women on balconette parties or something) and were pretty quickly exhausting things to do by the end of the week. Not to mention the weather was pretty awful when we were there (high of 96 two of the days - would never have gone then if not for the fact that was when the kiddos were out of school).
IMHO people who say "wouldn't want to live there" about places like NYC are just saying their personal preference. But in more small, tourist-dominated cities it gets objectively hard, because things like short-term rental housing, rich people with second homes, retirees, etc. just make finding an affordable unit anywhere within the urban core very difficult. The problem is particularly acute because tourist-dominated economies primarily create lower-wage jobs, who explicitly cannot afford to live in the touristy areas.
I really do think Florida fits the description perfectly and has for many years. Millions may live here and miliions more visit and that is part of the problem. It is far to overcrowded but doesn't have the infrastructure in place for all these people. That's just one major issue there are many many more, that just don't come up when you visit. It's when you live here that you can literally find yourself beat up by some of these issues.
It's much more expensive to live here than we may think when visiting. The high cost of insurance or not being able to get it, is a very serious issue down here. The cost of housing is way out of sync with reality, and many can't afford it anymore. So they have to leave the state. You also are better off if your politics fit this state, because if they don't its going to impact your living here. People may also find they could deal with the heat when visiting, but year after year of living here can take its toll. Not to mention the extreme storms and its not just Hurricanes, its violent thunderstorms and Tornadoes. I just spent my entire weekend throwing out carpet in my closed in Lanai because we had so much heavy rain in one hour. The water came up through the floor and wrecked the carpeting. It had to all be thrown out this morning. That storm came out of no where, and i have no way of knowing when the next one is. All I know is it won't be long and another one will come. It's things like that you don't think of when visiting, its all fun and games and life under a palm tree at that time. Living here is an entirely different experience. Overcrowding and the serious issues that come with that, have done far to much damage to Florida.
So wherever you go. I recommend you take a lengthy visit and do the visit, looking for aspects of what may or may not appeal to you if living there. Then make a decision on whether the pros outweigh the cons. Believe me some places are better left as places we visit.
A physically and geographically beautiful state, surrounded by ocean, palm trees and sunny weather (except for summer where thunderstorms and long overcast days are common.) that attract many tourists and snowbirds. It’s easy to think, due to the state’s heavily marketing focus on tourism, that life is likely a paradis there since who doesn’t like sun, beach and hanging out in the tiki bars?!
I lived there one year, in a very nice area where it’s safe, with fresh air and spanking new subdivision. But the 1st day we moved in, we saw a huge Trump rally in downtown Sarasota; driving on 75 we saw a massive, massive Confederate Flag hanging up in the air for all to see near Tampa; you can’t go out much in the month of March because of the flocks of Springbreakers; you can’t really go to the beach on any given holiday because of the traffic as everyone and their grandma are also going to the beach; for a supposed to be very vacation-minded, “paradise”-selling, “relaxing” state some people walking around with a chip on their shoulder. The conversation subject often came up “are you from the North?” “People from the North” that felt very insular and almost hostile. For people often referred Fl as “purple”, (see above Trump rally & Confederate flag.) it’s bringing such a bad taste in my mouth when I popped in to the Fl subforum to see some long time posters smugly bragged they “owning the libs” like it’s a badge of honor.
I don’t look down on someone or dislike the person because he/she has a different political inclination from mine. There are plenty kind, decent honest Republicans but the DeSantis worshipping, MAGA-shouting, Trump-loving angry racist bunch I unfortunately saw with the one year I lived on the West Coast of Fl made me not to live there, despite how beautiful the state is.
Speaking of beaches, I don’t even think FL beaches are all that spectacular. (Sarasota beaches are very overrated in my opinion. Nokomis and Anna Maria Island are better.) However when you only have beaches and sunny weather to offer, it’s not somewhere I would ever want to live again. Vacation a few days in and out yes, since the state sells itself as a very hedonistic pleasure-seeking type, it’s not somewhere to take seriously with.
People seem to think Florida is not the south. It 100% is. When people visit Florida remembering that, the Florida man memes and seeing a confederate flag start making more sense. And then your perception will begin to align with the real Florida. I visit Florida on average twice a year, to the Sarasota-Tampa stretch mostly. If you visit Florida thinking it’s all going to be like Miami or some white bread tropical version of Maryland or Ohio, you’re going to have a bad time, unless you actually are going to Miami. Miami stereotypes and visiting Miami seem to be aligned pretty well in my experience. But too many people expect their place out in a tropical Florida which is false. If you aren’t from the South, expect a culture shock. I wish people applied that logic when coming to Arizona thinking that people there will act like they did in Anywhere USA.
Anna Maria and Nokomis are very nice. To me I prefer the quiet beaches with very few people on them. It’s much easier to find such a beach in Florida than anywhere else, because in Florida there’s usually a better option or place to go that is still a beach. Other states don’t have such a luxury near their population centers it seems.
I personally wouldn’t live in Florida either. I like the mountains. I do however like a good Florida rain storm, which hasn’t happened up here unfortunately.
I really do think Florida fits the description perfectly and has for many years. Millions may live here and miliions more visit and that is part of the problem. It is far to overcrowded but doesn't have the infrastructure in place for all these people. That's just one major issue there are many many more, that just don't come up when you visit. It's when you live here that you can literally find yourself beat up by some of these issues.
It's much more expensive to live here than we may think when visiting. The high cost of insurance or not being able to get it, is a very serious issue down here. The cost of housing is way out of sync with reality, and many can't afford it anymore. So they have to leave the state. You also are better off if your politics fit this state, because if they don't its going to impact your living here. People may also find they could deal with the heat when visiting, but year after year of living here can take its toll. Not to mention the extreme storms and its not just Hurricanes, its violent thunderstorms and Tornadoes. I just spent my entire weekend throwing out carpet in my closed in Lanai because we had so much heavy rain in one hour. The water came up through the floor and wrecked the carpeting. It had to all be thrown out this morning. That storm came out of no where, and i have no way of knowing when the next one is. All I know is it won't be long and another one will come. It's things like that you don't think of when visiting, its all fun and games and life under a palm tree at that time. Living here is an entirely different experience. Overcrowding and the serious issues that come with that, have done far to much damage to Florida.
So wherever you go. I recommend you take a lengthy visit and do the visit, looking for aspects of what may or may not appeal to you if living there. Then make a decision on whether the pros outweigh the cons. Believe me some places are better left as places we visit.
Kind of hard to single out Florida out of all of the 50 states when its been leading the whole country in both domestic and international net migration for decades now.
U.S. states by net domestic migration (From July 1, 2020 to July 1, 2021)
It's been leading the country by far in net wealth migration for many years now as well. And these below don't even include international migration or all the huge bank accounts etc...2021's numbers are gonna be crazy too. (and 2022's)
2019
2020
Last edited by retslow105; 06-27-2022 at 09:24 AM..
Florida actually fits the model of a place better to live than visit pretty well. It has solid domestic migration, but much of this is retirees. For example, looking at 2020 ACS data, 2.8% of Florida residents lived in another state a year prior, but out of that total, nearly half (1.1% were over 50). Florida actually gets very few domestic migrants in the prime working ages of 30s/40s (0.6%), with most of the remainder children or young adults.
Florida also pretty notoriously doesn't really have a good white-collar job market. It has few prestigious universities, so there isn't even a large population of out-of-state folks who come to college there to try and retain. The state hasn't really worked to recruit corporate offices like Texas and Georgia, which have both risen up the income chain. Last I checked, average monthly earnings were worse than all other states in the South save for Arkansas and Mississippi. Which makes sense, because the state's economy is based around tourism and eldercare, which are both notoriously low-wage professions.
Essentially Florida is a decent place to live for many people if you don't have to work full-time for a living. If you're idle rich, semi-retired and spend the winters there, or live there as a full-time retiree. But it sucks to live there if you're working class compared to places like the Midwest where you get more bang for your buck. And if you're professional class, good luck even finding a job in your field.
I think this is spot on. Adding to it, high taxes, bad schools, limited shopping/dining, etc could be more reasons you wouldn’t want to live somewhere that’s otherwise good to visit.
For me, a few places that might be good to visit but not live at would include:
Key West, FL
Portsmouth, NH
Jackson, WY
New Orleans
Savannah, GA
St. Augustine, FL
Breckinridge, CO
Vail, CO
I lived in Portsmouth NH for a decade. Why on earth wouldn’t you want to live there? It’s a coastal metro Boston suburb. I lived in a house with a boat dock. I had a year where I could bicycle to work at one of the office buildings at Pease. I had a Boston Symphony season subscription. My employer had a luxury box at Boston Garden. It was a no-traffic highway drive to my Vermont ski place. I flew out of Logan Airport all the time. That was a reasonable drive. Whole Foods. Trader Joe’s. Asian grocer. Indian grocer. Good produce over the river in Kittery. REI. All the car dealerships. Good restaurant scene. I did my real health care at Mass General but the local hospital was ok. Housing is really expensive. The school system is strong since only white collar people live there. Taxes? No state income tax. No sales tax. Property taxes are reasonable because the tax base is so strong relative to the size of the school system.
Basically, the antithesis of your rant.
My stepdaughter went to High School in Vail. She went to the Vail Ski Academy which is somewhere in the top 10 in Colorado. We own a condo at the bottom of Beaver Creek 10 minutes from the Vail parking structure. We can walk to the town lift. We can walk to a good grocery store. We can walk to a bunch of restaurants and a really high end dining scene is 10 minutes away in Vail village. We’re only there midwinter but my stepdaughter is there full time. If your housing is sorted out like ours is, it’s a fine place to live. If you’re competent and have a bit of initiative, it’s a great place to earn a living since there is such a labor shortage. Vail Resort has a $20 minimum pay. Anyone with a pulse makes $50K. 6 figures is pretty common for a 30-something Millennial. Denver is a pretty easy drive down the hill if it’s not at tourist driving times. It’s only 100 miles on I-70. You’re not completely isolated. If you’re a local, you know hundreds of people who are living the same life you are.
Taxes there? A $750k condo pays $1,700 in property taxes. I pay the bill. Colorado has a flat state income tax that is pretty low. I’ve had business cards that said Denver so I’m pretty familiar with Colorado tax structure.
There are certainly vacation resort towns where I wouldn’t want to live but Portsmouth NH is a very uninformed choice. Most of Vail is really dark so I personally wouldn’t pick it. A few miles west of the village and it’s sunny.
Florida actually fits the model of a place better to live than visit pretty well. It has solid domestic migration, but much of this is retirees. For example, looking at 2020 ACS data, 2.8% of Florida residents lived in another state a year prior, but out of that total, nearly half (1.1% were over 50). Florida actually gets very few domestic migrants in the prime working ages of 30s/40s (0.6%), with most of the remainder children or young adults.
Florida also pretty notoriously doesn't really have a good white-collar job market. It has few prestigious universities, so there isn't even a large population of out-of-state folks who come to college there to try and retain. The state hasn't really worked to recruit corporate offices like Texas and Georgia, which have both risen up the income chain. Last I checked, average monthly earnings were worse than all other states in the South save for Arkansas and Mississippi. Which makes sense, because the state's economy is based around tourism and eldercare, which are both notoriously low-wage professions.
Essentially Florida is a decent place to live for many people if you don't have to work full-time for a living. If you're idle rich, semi-retired and spend the winters there, or live there as a full-time retiree. But it sucks to live there if you're working class compared to places like the Midwest where you get more bang for your buck. And if you're professional class, good luck even finding a job in your field.
Even if you cut Florida's domestic migration in half (2.8% to 1.1% isn't exactly "nearly half") it would still be higher than the 3rd ranked state Arizona. You are also forgetting about Florida leading the nation in international migration (per capita for the large states it leads by faar) so hey why not add that in too. What ages do you think those people are?
Older people are also moving more to parts of West and Central Florida than Southeast Florida, so that has to be taken into account. How many older people are migrating to Broward and Miami-Dade? Surely not as many as around Naples or the Villages etc..
Florida's actually not old as some people here think. Add in spring breakers/tourists etc, year-round crazy nightlife, bikini/beach/water/fast life hunters etc and places like Disney World/Miami Beach etc and it gives Florida a certain alluring young person exposure that most states have nothing to even compare to. No states have anything close to that combination actually.
Florida is the 5th oldest state and the 40th oldest state is only 5 years younger than Florida.
Florida also contains by faar the largest tropical urban beach area in the entire first world, which has an insane and super unique combination of great weather, nightlife, shopping, dining, crazy unique diversity, unique recreation, unique flora and fauna, beautiful people, super cars and mega yachts everywhere, cleanliness and modernity, gleaming towers and scarface mansions everywhere, moderate politics, a certain uniqueness to the U.S. and the world, a unique and great location, domestic and international appeal, etc etc I can go on and on.
These days that whole super unique combination of things shouldn't be underestimated and will drive great growth in many aspects going forward. And surely the entire state can't be reduced down to "Florida fits the model of a better place to visit than live," like you said. I mean come on were talking about a relatively really new state that already is 3rd out of the 50 states in highest population. That's gotta count for something. To say the only people who love Florida are retirees or the idle rich is laughable.
Many people don't realize how much Florida has improved in so many different statistics relative to the rest of the country in the past couple of decades (the last few years have been insane too), I think they would be very surprised. I'll be posting some amazing stats in the future here so hopefully you'll see them.
The income link you posted actually shows Florida closer to states such as California and New York than you believed?
The differences in your link between Florida, and California and New York is showing a 22 and 24 percent income difference. Factor in state taxes and cost of living and that starts looking pretty favorable for Florida. (to me and many other people anyways)
If you want to get into looking at per capita personal income (which is a much better metric for Florida's unique situation) then that starts looking even more favorable for Florida than the median wages you posted. And that's just actual reported personal income and none of the big bank accounts and hidden wealth that Florida is known for.
Hopefully someone else can respond to the rest of your post since you seem to make a lot of bold and very vague claims. I'll be back in a couple of days to respond if no one else does though.
Last edited by retslow105; 06-28-2022 at 03:16 PM..
What is HCL in SoCal? I can't figure that one out and I grew up and worked in SoCal.
I’m guessing Harbor City Long Beach. I could be wrong though but I’m from SoCal as well.
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