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Oil shale is not oil, and it has negative EREOI - it requirer more energy to produce it than you get from the resulting 'oil'. Same goes for tar sands.
In addition to it being much more harsh on the environment to produce. In order to get the "bang for the buck" that we get from the declines in conventional crude, we will have to tear up whole counties and mountain ranges that have shale reserves. Not to mention all or the water and natural gas used to extract oil from shale and the CO2 that is released in the process.
Oil shale is not oil, and it has negative EREOI - it requirer more energy to produce it than you get from the resulting 'oil'. Same goes for tar sands.
The estimates for oil shale, per barrel cost range from 12 dollars a barrel to 95 dollars a barrel.
The most educated estimates are around 60 dollars a barrel. We pay over 80 now, to countries that want to kill us.
Imagine what keeping an additional 700 billion dollars a year in the US economy would do for us.
Oil shale is oil, its just got to be mined and processed.
In addition to it being much more harsh on the environment to produce. In order to get the "bang for the buck" that we get from the declines in conventional crude, we will have to tear up whole counties and mountain ranges that have shale reserves. Not to mention all or the water and natural gas used to extract oil from shale and the CO2 that is released in the process.
Ok, here is the thing.
Hazardous to the environment is a problem to be sure, but we've got short term problems now. Global warming is going to happen on whatever oil we are on, and real alternatives are decades away from making a real impact.
So what do we do for the next twenty years while we push for wind/solar/nuclear and other options? Oil Shale. We spend 700 billion dollars a year on foreign oil, imagine what we could do with that money in our economy.
I'm all for saving the environment, but we need a solution now, oil shale could be that solution if the government forced oil companies to use it instead of drilling.
Hazardous to the environment is a problem to be sure, but we've got short term problems now. Global warming is going to happen on whatever oil we are on, and real alternatives are decades away from making a real impact.
So what do we do for the next twenty years while we push for wind/solar/nuclear and other options? Oil Shale. We spend 700 billion dollars a year on foreign oil, imagine what we could do with that money in our economy.
I'm all for saving the environment, but we need a solution now, oil shale could be that solution if the government forced oil companies to use it instead of drilling.
I agree, that desperate times call for desperate measures:
Not to sound like a tree-hugging enviromentalist because I am as guilty as almost everyone else, but from a logical standpoint IMO:
I say we drastically change the way we live. Use vehicles only when absolutely necessary. Use vehicles that get at least 30mpg if you need one. Bike-walk the rest of the time. Rearrange our communities so that we are less vehicle dependent (denser neighborhoods, walkable). Pump as much money as possible into (good and efficient) public transit. Re-invest in the railroad. Grow and produce more things locally.
Sadly, most of these changes take money, which many governments (Federal, state, local) dont have the funds to invest in any longer and effort, which many of us lack. We have pissed away our chance to change our lifestyles and greatly reduce our energy dependence. People want their suburban subdivisions, SUVs (there is no denying it, I am guilty as well). We have asked ourselves at what price when gas went up past $4 per gallon a few years ago. I think we will be asking "at what price" again very soon. We don't have the want or the will to change our lifestlyes until its too late and we are forced to do so or destroy our childrens future.
We have been saying for years and years that we need to reduce our dependence on oil. If renewable resources are not at all able to step up to the plate right now, who will step up and change their energy habbits.
I agree, that desperate times call for desperate measures:
Not to sound like a tree-hugging enviromentalist because I am as guilty as almost everyone else, but from a logical standpoint IMO:
I say we drastically change the way we live. Use vehicles only when absolutely necessary. Use vehicles that get at least 30mpg if you need one. Bike-walk the rest of the time. Rearrange our communities so that we are less vehicle dependent (denser neighborhoods, walkable). Pump as much money as possible into (good and efficient) public transit. Re-invest in the rail road.
Sadly, most of these changes take money, which many governments (Federal, state, local) dont have the funds to invest in any longer. We have pissed away our chance to change our lifestyles and greatly reduce our energy dependence. People want their suburban subdivisions, SUVs. We have asked ourselves at what price when gas went up past $4 per gallon a few years ago. I think we will be asking "at what price" again very soon. We don't have the want or the will to change our lifestlyes until its too late and we are forced to do so or destroy our childrens future.
We have been saying for years and years that we need to reduce our dependence on oil. If renewable resources are not at all able to step up to the plate right now, who will step up and change their energy habbits.
Telling Americans they have to change the way they live is a lesson in futility.
I understand your point, and I personally limit my electrical use, I keep my thermostat below 68 in the winter, and as high as 80 in the summer. I use energy star appliances, low flow toilets, etc.
But telling everyone they have to do what I do just isn't going to work. When we have a cheap source of domestic oil that would last the United States until 2200, I say we use it. We'll always need oil for lots of different things.
Hazardous to the environment is a problem to be sure, but we've got short term problems now. Global warming is going to happen on whatever oil we are on, and real alternatives are decades away from making a real impact.
What global warming? It's now known as climate change, which is a natural phenomenon.
What global warming? It's now known as climate change, which is a natural phenomenon.
I believe we should limit human contributions to the environment, if possible. But I don't think we should destroy our way of life in order to do that.
Humans screw things up, the less we can effect the environment the better. At least until we are on another rock in space.
Location: Finally escaped The People's Republic of California
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True, we have plenty of oil right here in America. The current game plan is to use all the Arabs oil up first. Meanwhile battery technolgy is getting better and better. You have to figure it will take several decades to eliminate most gas burning cars after a good battery car is found. get personal automobiles off of gasoline and we will have enough oil for centuries to come, by then there should be some kind of non lubrication needed mag drive stuff out there
(To memphis 1979 - i can't quote on this phone) I was talking about the energy return ratios, not the financial cost. A modern economy cannot be run on low EREOI fuels (not much less than 1:20) and definately not fuels with negative ratios. Shale (and other 'alternative' oils) cannot replace crude oil as a source of energy.
Last edited by archineer; 01-02-2011 at 04:26 PM..
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