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It's simple historical fact. The slave-holding states were worried that the powerful new Congress would come to end slavery by disarming state militias. These militias were all that stood to defend white society in the hardly improbable event of a slave uprising. The Federalists agreed to add language to prohibit Congress from disarming these "slave patrol" militias, and that promise was given its effect in the 2nd Amendment.
Not buying it.
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Originally Posted by Reynard32
Society does not exist as separate and distinct camps of good- and evil-doers. Every first offense gun crime is committed by someone who would previously have been classified in your world as a law-abider. We need to keep law-abiders from becoming gun criminals, and handing all of them guns is not the way to do it. Guns are an engine for turning fleeting impulses into enduring disasters.
Rubbish. Contrary to the propaganda, the majority of responsible gun owners are not chomping at the bit to shoot someone. Guns are a tool, and a means to protect one's self from harm. Yes they can be used for murder, but there is a difference between murder, and using one in self defense.
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Originally Posted by Reynard32
So what? Reducing the scandalous levels of gun-related death and mayhem out there is a good and noble thing in and of itself. So is working to reduce the number of traffic fatalities, which we of course also do.
Want to reduce it? Get tougher on those who use a gun to commit a violent crime. Murder? You get life doing hard time, with no chance of parole. Or if we're going to use the death penalty, make sure it's done quickly, and cut out the damn appeals process. Same with rape. Armed robbery? 25 years of doing hard time with no chance of parole!
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Originally Posted by Reynard32
It's important to know that in fact it is a distinct minority of American households that actually owns guns, much less wants to run around in public with them.
And yet gun sales are at an all time high, and the majority of Americans still support the 2nd Amendment.
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Originally Posted by Reynard32
Who said anything about repealing it? Is it all just black and white where you are? No shades of gray at all?
Nope. It is that black and white! Gun control is code word from progressives for an eventual ban, and doing away with the 2nd! You guys want to slowly but surely implement more laws and regulations in essence of getting the public to go along and make them more complacent, and receptive of the idea of it being OK to do away with the 2nd! Sadly for your side, most of us aren't buying into the BS!
Last edited by Jeo123; 09-10-2015 at 10:51 AM..
Reason: Broke apart responses to quote
Lots of people don't buy evolution or global warming either. Doesn't change the simple facts of the matter.
Well, with evolution I think there is some validity to it, and have no issue with mixing science and religion. A rarity for sure. Global warming the way the alarmist would have us believe on the other hand is a farce, and is just an excuse to take hard earned money out of our pockets in the form of more taxation. That is a topic for a whole other thread.
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Originally Posted by Reynard32
People migrate from being law-abiders to being gun-criminals every day. It's a one-way trip, of course.
There may be some truth to this. Except of course the majority aren't migrating to becoming gun-criminals.
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Originally Posted by Reynard32
Punishments of whatever medieval sort come after the fact. No one would be unkilled or unmaimed by them.
Well... it would certainly serve as a deterrent for others that if you use a gun or any other weapon to commit a violent crime, you will be severely punished for it. Actions have consequences! And if you choose to commit crimes, then you reap what you sow! Hell, the laws as is regarding murder and committing violent crimes are enough of a deterrent for me, because I don't want to die, or go to prison! Not to mention I do value life as well as the life of others. However; I will defend myself and my family if need be. To think that someone would shoot an intruder in their home becomes a criminal is about as ridiculous as it gets!
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Originally Posted by Reynard32
You can tell me what YOU think, but you cannot tell me what I think, hard as you may be trying to do so.
The whole "gun control" BS is code for the attempt of an eventual ban on firearms. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.
Last edited by Jeo123; 09-10-2015 at 10:53 AM..
Reason: Broke apart responses to quote
I believe guns are bad but since there are so many guns in America something like 40% or more of the world's firearms, we can't band guns as that is ridiculous. A country where the number of guns are very little though like Japan or Korea the lack of guns help keep murders low as knife doesn't kill as easily as a gun, although the reason why Korea and Japan are so peaceful compared to virtually anywhere else can be attributed to having the highest average age of men in the world( old people( and in general women) don't commit crime nearly as high as young adult males) and relatively being ethnically homogeneous, helps keep their country from local ethnic conflicts to a minimum, with knives being the primary weapon in the country for crime, instead of guns (I am looking for it but in a Philadelphia report 1/3 gunshot wound victim dies vs. 1/13 knife victims dying). Also it is easier to run away from someone trying to stab you, and it easier to fight back than someone shooting at you.
Concluding America- guns are okay
Anywhere else with little guns per capita (including illegal guns) Guns should be limited to one shot, reload or or hunting rifles, something. (Not going to act like an expert only fired a gun once ever, and it wasn't really a big gun)
I believe that people should be encouraged to take responsibility of their own security seriously rather than pushing it off to others.
As this world becomes more crowded and tensions are building , the only way to ensure better behavior is that all have the same capacity to defend them self.
Aside situational awareness, the fire arm is the equalizer no matter what you build is or gender.
Teaching people it is a necessity rather then being fearful of them, and encouraging training and practice, would make for a more alert public and more likely to take a stand against criminal behavior .
More public with guns will also make the government less likely to run rough shod on the public, which is why the government is making the false flags.
UN agenda 21 is all about disarming the public so they can run rough shod over the public and reduce the population by 80%
And that's a fact.............
Not when you claim that "I'm not buying it" is some sort of valid argument in this thread. Open a history book of the era. Read the Virginia legislative debates over ratification. You will find that in fact the slave-holding states were worried that Congress would try to end slavery by disarming state militias. These militias were what stood between white society and the carnage of slave uprisings. The Federalists agreed to assuage such concerns by adding language to the Constitution that forbade Congress from disarming the militias. That's where the 2nd Amendment came from.
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Originally Posted by no1brownsfan
There may be some truth to this. Except of course the majority aren't migrating to becoming gun-criminals.
The point here is that there ARE NOT these two discreet groups of people. All first time gun offenders are migrants from those you want to call law-abiders who simply did not abide. They migrated by using their guns in some criminal manner. It happens all the time. You just can't trust a law-abider with a gun. The ones without guns are a lot safer to be around.
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Originally Posted by no1brownsfan
Well... it would certainly serve as a deterrent for others that if you use a gun or any other weapon to commit a violent crime, you will be severely punished for it.
So many gun crimes are spur of the moment things. Momentary fears and impulses that get converted by guns into enduring tragedies. Judicial deterence plays no role in such things.
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Originally Posted by no1brownsfan
I will defend myself and my family if need be. To think that someone would shoot an intruder in their home becomes a criminal is about as ridiculous as it gets!
Trying to pull a gun on an armed intruder is about as ridiculous as it gets. You only increase the chances of your own death. The statistically superior response is to withdraw, run to the neighbors, and call police.
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Originally Posted by no1brownsfan
The whole "gun control" BS is code for the attempt of an eventual ban on firearms. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it is still a pig.
If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Hear these two words: harm reduction. That's the bottom line.
For those claiming guns as effective self defense id love stories of concealed carry stopping a criminal. LINKS PLEASE.
For those against id like to see instances or data on legal concealed carry weapons being used in violent crime. I see plenty of evidence of legally obtained guns being later used for crime. LINKS PLEASE
The solution has to evolve. It isn't going to come from a single source all at one time. A nice first tiny little baby step in that direction would be to have the NRA and gun nuts actually admit that guns in an urban environment are and long have been a serious problem. That's Step-1. Then we can go to work on the other 11 steps.
The solution has to evolve. It isn't going to come from a single source all at one time. A nice first tiny little baby step in that direction would be to have the NRA and gun nuts actually admit that guns in an urban environment are and long have been a serious problem. That's Step-1. Then we can go to work on the other 11 steps.
Who are the folks in the urban environment committing violent crimes with the use of a gun? Hint! It isn't working folks like me, that are productive members of society! It's funny, because urban areas tend to have stricter gun laws, yet that is where most of the gun crimes take place! Your solution in restricting, or doing away with guns leaves people vulnerable to the dregs of society! I know, I know... "just runaway and call a cop" right? That is all well and good if you are able to remove yourself from a situation, but sometimes there isn't an out, and you HAVE TO stand your ground! Besides, if it comes down to it, I'd rather go down facing the perp, than be shot in the back trying to run!
It's not as if anyone argues that guns get up by themselves and shoot people. Many of us just don't see a reason why so many people need to have the ability to kill people so easily and so MANY of them (as you can with a gun).
As most of us know, there was a recent attack in China on elementary school kids which left 22 wounded. If the guy had a gun, it would have been like Newton, CT. Sure, a knife can also kill (happened in China a few yrs ago), but in general, it takes longer and is harder (which would give others time to stop the attacker).
I really don't see why anyone, other than the cops and military, should have the ability to STOCK UP on guns and ammunition. Sure, I can see having a single gun if you live in a city/suburb if you're scared in your home and maybe a few if you live in a rural area....even in those scenarios, no one really needs to have a gun that can fire many times before re-loading. And only a tiny fraction of people need to be able to have like more than 10 bullets at any given time. I live in TX, a totally gun loving state, which was a bit of a culture shock. I see no reason why people I know should have multiple guns as a HOBBY.
As you pointed out, 55degrees, guns don't kill people; people kill people, so it doesn't make any difference how many guns a person has.
People have been killing people since Cain slew Abel, and he didn't have a gun to his name.
If a person is of a mind to kill, he/she is going to find a way to do it, period.
Does the availability of guns make random acts of violence easier to perpetrate? Probably, but there is always something a person can use to commit murder if they are so inclined.
Shalom,
Mahrie.
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Your solution in restricting, or doing away with guns leaves people vulnerable to the dregs of society! I know, I know... "just runaway and call a cop" right? That is all well and good if you are able to remove yourself from a situation, but sometimes there isn't an out, and you HAVE TO stand your ground! Besides, if it comes down to it, I'd rather go down facing the perp, than be shot in the back trying to run!