Is prison too easy? (unemployment, interview, legal, marijuana)

[BrianH]

Prison isnt as easy as t.v.makes it look, unless youve been in one you cant tell, lots of tension in those places.

If you are not going to kill every person that goes to prison you havr to give them a chance at education and rehab themselves. Like others pointed out, tv, gym etc is a way of.control. it keeps the place safer for inmates and staff.

Biggest problem with prison is 60pc of the dudes there have bad mental health issues so prison isnt going to teach them a thing, they need more mental hospitals.

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

[Oleg Bach]

Under some other systems it was not so much about punishment or deterring someone from crime..it was to reform the person...Prisons do nothing other than store societies mistakes. It is Easy being locked up with a bunch of crazy misfits? I knew this guy who did hard federal time and he said it was hell...even while sleeping he had to worry about being stabbed to death..that does not sound easy to me.

[Three Wolves In Snow]

Originally Posted by A2DAC1985

And a follow up question; is what we're doing working?

http://www.howstuffworks.com/prison1.htm

Well, that's the first mistake. Relying on a website instead of eye witness testimony.

Let me start by saying I'm liberal. I'm not "a liberal", but I'm liberal like the adjective.

I don't think our current system is hard enough on criminals, and I don't think it really works in deterring future crimes from people that have been locked up in prison (the only exception might be Super Max facilities).

I agree with you, they are not hard enough in many places. Even in Super Max facilities.

Have you seen some of these prison cells? Good Lord. There are dorm rooms with less space and less amenities. TV's inside prisoners cells, posters, personal effects, etc.

Three meals a day?
Clothes?
Guaranteed meals?
Guaranteed medical treatment?
Cable TV?
Visitors?
Recreation?
Social interaction?

Let's break some of these down. Yes, they are like tiny dorm rooms. But, they are small and often times have to be shared with another person. You had better learn quick to deal with whomever you are roomed with.

Three meals a day: Have you ever eaten prison food? It's not exactly like they are getting anything that's tasty.

Clothes: In some it's orange or blue jumpers. Every. single. day. Some places have sweats. Every. single. day.

Guaranteed meals: We do have to feed them.

Guaranteed medical treatment: False! They may be sustained for "minor" medical or dental issues. Do not mistake it for the kind of treatment we get out here. Have a tooth ache? You just lost that tooth. A cavity? You just lost that tooth. Headache? Need a band-aid? You would think it would be easy to get one or an aspirin. Eventually you might, often times you are denied. In extreme pain? Depends on the guards. Some of them say, "Man up" because they don't believe the inmate. It can take quite a bit for an inmate to be seen, especially "after hours" of the joke of a medical department at most prisons. In the cases of heart attacks or chest pains, yes, they will receive immediate check up and observation but again, it's not like you are used to, out here. If they require surgery, they will get it at a hospital. Doesn't mean it's a good hospital and they don't have the choice as to which hospital they will be visiting.

Cable TV: Often times that cable t.v. is paid for by the income inmates make for the prison. (ie: Wood work, furniture or decorations that they sell. That money goes right back in to the system and pays for things like cable t.v. for the inmates. The myth that we, the tax payers are paying for that is just that, a myth.)

Visitors: Builds up moral. Having an outside influence come in, family, clergy, friends, does a world of good for an inmate and keeps their behavior in check. They know they can lose visitation if they act up.

Recreation: Basketball court, maybe a baseball field, weight room. Some prisons might have a band room or churches, etc. We cannot deny an inmate religious services. All other things keep an inmate busy and occupied. Busy inmates burn off pent up energy. This keeps the staff safe.

Social interaction: Well, quite often that social interaction is NOT wanted.

Prison can give a law breaking citizen all of those things.

It's not as nice as you think it is.

Are you tired of being homeless? Begging for change to find a meal?

Don't worry! Try to stab someone to death and you can have a better life than you did on the streets! Just be sure to plead guilty and ask for the maximum punishment.

In some cases, yes, some people do view prison as their only way of keeping a roof over their head but most inmates do NOT want to be in prison. Again, it's not as nice as you think it is.

To live in "poverty" in America, for a single person, you need to make less than $11,490 a year.
To live in prison in America, for a single person, costs about $47,000 a year... in California at least.

Then what would you suggest as an alternative? Death penalty costs even more.

Hell, a family of EIGHT (8!) lives in poverty if they make less than $39,630 a year.

What California spends per prisoner is more than $7,000+ a year than what the (Californian) government thinks is enough for a family to not be considered "in poverty".

Federal Poverty Guidelines

Again, what would you suggest as an alternative?

And for my sub question, "Is it working?", well, I guess it does. It works in the sense that it takes those people out of everyday society. But it doesn't really act as much of a deterrent to make people change their ways, does it? Or to change their mind set on life?

I do not agree that it works. The recidivism rate is high, most especially those who are in for drugs. Often times, they serve their 3 or so years, get out and are right back in to prison in a year or so. Some felonies are from behaviors or beliefs that cannot be changed. (ie: sexual predators, child rapists, etc) People will bemoan that but look at any page on the politics forum and see how many people ask when we chose our sexual preferences. We don't. And some people are aroused by children. You cannot cure them. Letting them out, chances are, they are going to re-offend.

There's all kinds of social programs in prison for inmates and some of them DO work. Many of them are abused as a place to gather, get out of the pod for awhile. It doesn't mean that the inmate has any intention of learning or retaining anything.

To paraphrase George Jung (Johnny Depp) in the movie "Blow": "I went in there with a degree in marijuana, but I walked out with a doctorate in Cocaine."

There is nothing like prison to teach a criminal how to be a "better" criminal, that is correct. Keep in mind, they have 24 hours a day to think about things. Many of them are NOT thinking about how sorry they are, they are thinking of ways to do it "better" next time and not get caught.

People can learn all kinds of things, and make all kinds of plots while in prison because they still have access to other people who may or may not have committed the same crimes. Learning of the criminal kind can ensue.

Correct. It is up to the inmate to decide if they really wish to change their life. However, even in solitary confinement, they have access to other prisoners...and not just in that particular prison. They have access to prisoners all over the country. Again, inmates have 24 hours a day to think about things. When you have nothing else to do, you can get quite crafty.

Plus, what good good does it do to put people into a system where sheer force reigns supreme? That's the type of behavior that put many people in prison in the first place.

It depends on how you look at things. Sheer force is going to bring out the worst in an inmate if it is applied in today's prisons, the way they are built. Back in the olden days, they had prison cells that were underground and those inmates had NO connection to anyone else but a prison guard. Which is better?

Someone looks at you "funny"? Beat the hell out of them... but that only works in prison, not the real world... so what are we "rehabbing" our prisoners to be?

That doesn't work in the real world? That's exactly how many inmates act in the real world. It doesn't matter if they are in prison or in the real world, they act the EXACT same way. If you mean it doesn't work out in the real world without repercussions but does in prison, you could not be more sorely mistaken.

Prison, in my mind, should be a punishment, not a day care.

Agreed. Even if the inmates are given everything, especially when they whine a lot to guards or the Warden, it's not exactly a happy little day care. Regardless, most states view being IN prison as the punishment. Being sentenced IS the punishment. That is actually the mind set. "Well, they received a 10 year sentence, that is their punishment. Our job is not to continue to punish them while they are here." You can find that "explanation" in more liberal states.

One cell. One person. One bed. One sink. One toilet. One shower.
An 8' x 6' cell.

Most inmates would love that.

No outside window. Only a solid steel door with a viewing panel(s) for guards to look in.

Don't forget the tray slot. As for a window, really, many of them don't have a whole hell of a lot to be looking AT outside their window!

Three meals a day.

That's what they get now. They are able to order from the "commissary" if someone gives them money, (either family or another inmate "owes" them), or they have earned it through their job at the prison and can get all kinds of snacks, pop and goodies through the little order kiosk.

No outside recreation. No inside recreation.

I disagree. The problem with this is that you are setting the stage for a riot. Giving inmates a way to let off steam, to work it out of their system through physical exercise keeps the guards safe, other inmates safe and the public safe.

Inside recreation, again, we cannot deny an inmate religious services. And often times, many of them are able to go to classes and earn credits for school. For some, this may be the only way they can get those. When people are educated, they tend to make better decisions. Programs designed to help inmates overcome problems such as substance abuse are also beneficial. While not everyone uses them nor uses them for the right reasons, quite a few inmates are serious about turning their lives around and conquering their problems such as alcohol dependency. I would rather they have learned the skills to do that WHILE they were in prison than throw them out to the streets once again when they have served their sentence without those skills. Taking away their indoor/outdoor recreation is a very, very, very bad idea.

Prisoners are allowed to read books from a (the) library.

They are now. They are allowed to buy books from certain places but often times they have a limit to how many they can have in their possession at one time.

Prisoners are also allowed to be tutored in fields they are interested in, or lack basic comprehension in.

This does fall under indoor recreation. And yes, it is a very good idea to educate them. Absolutely.

No visitors.

Terrible idea. I already explained why.

No unescorted roaming outside the cell.

Really? Do you have ANY idea that massive amount of movement that goes on all day long by inmates? Some are going to and from work, some are going to medical, some are going to chow, some are going to their classes, some are going to their religious services...just how many guards do you want each state to hire? And how much are the taxpayers willing to fork out for a guard for each prisoner? And in some cases, the inmate needs two guards, like on transports or if they are in the max security segment/segregation. And what if there is a fight? Well, you must staff more guards so that there's enough to watch every single inmate going to and fro, as well as the inmates in the pods as well as enough to take care of the fights.

Inmates are given a little amount of freedom to walk freely to and from activities based on their behavior. If they jack that all up by being a moron, that freedom is taken away for a period of time by placing them in their cell on a lock down status or by placing them in to a segregation unit for awhile.

And now the "silver lining" to the "clouds" I brought up:

Everyone currently in prison for a non-violent offense (and has no previous violent offenses on their record) will be released immediately.

You mean like drugs?

Prison sentences will be shortened dramatically.

What makes you think that's a good idea? Let them out now, they re-offend, they'll be right back in there.

Prisoners can't build upon their criminal knowledge by interacting with other inmates.

Whoo boy are you naive. It is IMPOSSIBLE to keep inmates from communicating with other inmates. Again, they have 24 hours a day to think about things. They will find a way no matter how hard you try to stop them. And preventing them from communicating with other inmates sounds like a good idea, it sounds like it would prevent them from finding out how to be a "better" criminal but in reality, it's not as good an idea as you think it is. Despite what those inmates have done, they are still human beings and human beings are social creatures. If they are not allowed any type of human contact, socially, you will have a HUGE problem on your hands. Taking away social contact is about the dumbest idea you've come up with yet.

How about making a prison system where people are actually punished for their crimes?

This has been discussed. See above.

How about making a prison system where people aren't climbing "the ladder" by doing things that are socially unacceptable outside of prison?

You watch too much "Lockdown". Seriously, you truly have no idea how things really work in prison.

How about making a system where people really, really, really don't want to come back to?

Most of them DON'T "really, really, really" want to come back. Most of them hate every single second they are there. Just because someone reallllllllly doesn't want to go back there doesn't mean they will make the best choices on the outside when they see their old neighborhood, their old friends and things that are familiar to them seem easier than trying to live by the rules...especially in a society that does not tend to allow an ex con to find work easily or continue on as a normal member of society. It's supposed to be that they were charged and served their time. They paid their debt to society. Unfortunately, even after they get out, society tells them, "No. You haven't!"

What are your thoughts?

I think you are quite naive to real prison life.

[markg91359]

I mean obviously you are right judging by some of the comments here. What do
you think it's brewing these feelings of "revenge" Could be it the same
violence we experience on the streets? Fear?

I think some Americans don't realize how safe some other parts of the world
are.

This is a good question and I think it deserves some discussion. There is not one answer to it. IMO, there are several. This is why I think American society is preoccupied with these feelings of revenge and retribution:

1. There's a widespread belief among millions in this country that their personal situation has declined in the last couple of decades. Recession and news reports of terrorism fuel this fear. I'm talking about their feelings of both financial security and security from crime. People want someone or something to blame and lash out against. Insecurity leads to fear. Fearful people seek targets. People have a psychological need to believe that they are "in control" of their lives. I think this feeling of being in control has been lost by millions of Americans and the repercussions are deeper than we think.

2. Shows like "America's Most Wanted" and "Top Cops" have proliferated on t.v. to a point of saturation. I see shows that are now talking about crimes that were committed fifteen or more years ago. The ID Channel on cable is a 24/7 nonstop parade that has rounded up every atrocious murder committed in this country and made a t.v. show out of it. If you watch this stuff for very long, you'll get the idea that "crime is everywhere" and is "destroying the fabric of our society". No one ever mentions the fact that crime statistics show a large national decline overall in violent crime in the last 18 years.

3. The proliferation of media outlets that broadcast exactly one political point of view. Fox News, Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh primarily blast liberals. However, crime does come up as a topic and the conservative approach to crime can be summarized as: 1. more use of the death penalty; 2. longer prison sentences; and 3. Less pleasant prisons to incarcerate the criminal element in.

Its pretty hard to have a rational conversation about crime with people who live in the paradigm that I have described above. Honestly, the best bet for changing this paradigm would be if America pulls out of its current recession and if terrorist attacks disappear as well. Than, I think some of the hysteria might start to die down.

[jertheber]

Whenever the conversation turns to prisons and punishment in general, the most glaring aspect of the commentary is the assumed "knowledge" of these institutions and the plight of criminals. I can only Imagine the amount of research it would take to allow a person an educated view of the complexities surrounding the issues of crime and punishment. Today's prisons are supposed to be places where the criminal is "rehabilitated", but accomplishing that seems to be the number one failing of such systems. Any time spent behind the walls is hard time to those with some hope of accomplishing change, but, those with little hope see it as just another "downtime" period to be tolerated until their release.

Recidivism is high because ex cons are subject to an economy that has little to no need for them, as ex cons, or before their incarceration when they were part of the populace with little hope of achieving anything. A lot of the crime that results in incarceration is of the economic type, robbery, drug dealing, car theft, and a ton of other criminal enterprises that ARE open to those so willing. Getting money when you are broke and uneducated usually involves a criminal matter, Poverty is it's own hardship imposed on the early life of a lot of those in prison.

Making life harder inside means little to those expecting it, while showing some give a damn about them may just be the opportunity they have missed on the outside. trying different approaches to rehabilitation means really trying and not just talking about it. Those who propose a severe life for the imprisoned should take a clue from the French who felt it necessary to do just that, and then failed in their attempts to discourage crime in their country by utilizing brutal methods in their prisons. Soviet prisons are also known for their harsh life, they also have a high crime rate, as does Turkey, another place known for it's brutal prison life. If we are to change prisons, I'd think we should consider the not so endearing qualities of American prisons.

[Sally_Sparrow]

Originally Posted by Three Wolves In Snow

You had better learn quick to deal with whomever you are roomed with.

Yup. Your "cellie" can cause a world of crap to come down on your head even if you are just trying to behave and do your time quietly. The wrong roommate can spell constant misery if they are prone to trouble-making. Think the guards care if that contraband item really does NOT belong to you?

Three meals a day: Have you ever eaten prison food? It's not exactly like they are getting anything that's tasty.

Many Texas prisons cut back to two meals a day on weekends. Considering a budget of about $3 a day per prisoner for food, I'm sure people can imagine what this means in terms of what exactly is served.

Guaranteed medical treatment: <snip> Eventually you might, often times you are denied. In extreme pain? Depends on the guards. Some of them say, "Man up" because they don't believe the inmate.

Yes, and even in cases of documented illness, disease, etc., with prisoners who had health problems before becoming incarcerated, there is still often an attitude of total disregard and an assumption that someone is faking. My brother described how inmates who were on crutches or using walkers or canes had to stand for hours to receive their medications, and anyone who leaned against the wall or attempted to sit was disciplined. That is, when medications were not withheld for whatever reason.

Waiting days to have a broken bone initially looked at is not unheard of. The "secret death penalty" refers to non-violent offenders dying due to inadequate, inappropriate, or non-existent medical care in prison.

Cable TV: Often times that cable t.v. is paid for by the income inmates make for the prison. (ie: Wood work, furniture or decorations that they sell. That money goes right back in to the system and pays for things like cable t.v. for the inmates. The myth that we, the tax payers are paying for that is just that, a myth.)

Yes, this is correct. In Texas anyway, this is paid for via profits from the commissary/canteen sales. The cable TV is one TV in a common area shared by multiple prisoners. My brother never goes to the "TV room", he says it is absolutely insane with the yelling and carrying on. It is also where many fights occur, he just avoids it. I know he would rather have some break from triple digit heat in summer, over having the option to watch cable TV in the dayroom. He's be happier if they'd just keep the temp inside down to double digits.

<snip>

Inmates are given a little amount of freedom to walk freely to and from activities based on their behavior. If they jack that all up by being a moron, that freedom is taken away for a period of time by placing them in their cell on a lock down status or by placing them in to a segregation unit for awhile.

And the thing about lockdown; a few bad apples can mean lockdown for every single inmate, for months. A fight, an escape attempt, or the highly publicized case a few years ago with guards smuggling in cell phones to death row inmates, which prompted a lockdown for all Texas prisons. Lockdowns mean no movement, bagged sandwich lunches, limited showers, no visits, no phone calls because someone else did something stupid.

Most of them DON'T "really, really, really" want to come back. Most of them hate every single second they are there. Just because someone reallllllllly doesn't want to go back there doesn't mean they will make the best choices on the outside when they see their old neighborhood, their old friends and things that are familiar to them seem easier than trying to live by the rules...especially in a society that does not tend to allow an ex con to find work easily or continue on as a normal member of society. It's supposed to be that they were charged and served their time. They paid their debt to society. Unfortunately, even after they get out, society tells them, "No. You haven't!"

Excellent and important points. Sure, they've "done their time" but good luck explaining what you've been doing the past X years when it comes to finding a job, apartment... and if you are paroled vs serving your full sentence then there are parole related fees, mandatory classes and meetings, repayment of GED and other classes taken while incarcerated, all of this is certainly not impossible but success or failure depends so much on what kind of family support someone has, what kind of skills they have with respect to finding work, and very importantly, how "institutionalized" they have become.

Institutionalization can be the defining factor as to whether or not someone returns to prison after release. It is very difficult, especially for those who served long sentences, to learn how to function again in free society. It is a huge adjustment when a person is used to every single facet of life being controlled and scheduled. They have to re-learn how to make basic decisions, how to think for themselves, how to stop being hyper-vigilant and distrustful and paranoid (things necessary for survival in prison), how to deal with PTSD, how to react normally in social situations again.

This is the closest thing to someone "wanting to go back" to prison, because they no longer understand how to function as a free person in society. It is frightening and overwhelming and even though they may "want" to remain on the outside, they do not have the ability to make the transition if they don't' have support.

[_redbird_]

Originally Posted by Three Wolves In Snow

Well, that's the first mistake. Relying on a website instead of eye witness testimony.

<snip>

I think you are quite naive to real prison life.

Excellent post with excellent points, Three Wolves in Snow.

I just love these arm chair quarterback discussions. Note the sarcasm. It would probably help the OP and half the posters if they actually worked in a prison, including security levels (maximum, medium, minimum, community, halfway house, and work center), because most of the posters have no fricking idea what they are talking about.

[shadowwalker]

Absolutely! It seems more like a primitive vacation than something to retrain,mentally adjust them back into society. I have talked with some newly released and they seem to more criminal knowledge than when they went in and have no problem going back. We need to bring back chain gangs, hard labor and make them mandatory to complete a college or get a skill they can apply when they get out of prison to support themselves. Most act like the time they served was a joke and they had a good time.

[jertheber]

Originally Posted by shadowwalker

Absolutely! It seems more like a primitive vacation than something to retrain,mentally adjust them back into society. I have talked with some newly released and they seem to more criminal knowledge than when they went in and have no problem going back. We need to bring back chain gangs, hard labor and make them mandatory to complete a college or get a skill they can apply when they get out of prison to support themselves. Most act like the time they served was a joke and they had a good time.

Why are our prisons not filling up with folks who have had the benefit of a good education, a good family life, and are hopeful about their future? Why is it that a lot of ex cons seem to think their prison experience is a natural and expected part of life? The time they serve IS A JOKE because it's just the path they've been on since their childhood and most knew it was a matter of when not if. Criminals aren't usually coming from a wide demographic, the experience of early childhood poverty, lack of a good education, and most importantly lack of a strong adult presence is common to a lot of prisoners.

These people belonged to a sub culture long before they have been formally incarcerated, they're doing time in another sense before they are living inside the walls of prison. Ghetto life, gang life, little to no structure in the home, failing in school, and, last but surely not least is the newfound adulation of prison culture itself. Baggy low hanging pants, tattoos covering the body, music that validates their tough guy image, add some worship of guns, no work, no money, and you've got the formula for an anti social angry person brewing long before they commit any crime.

Read my first post wherein I stated the failure of other nations prison systems to prevent criminal behavior by creating a hellish environment, the worst aspect of those systems was the creation of tougher, meaner, more violent prisoners. If we really want to change the prison system we first need to see the reasons so many end up in prison. I don't think that laying around a cell all day is an acceptable form of rehabilitation, nor do I think the return of the whipping post or chain gangs would do much good either. Prisoners need to work, period. They need to have a life of structure that includes work, education, responsibility, and most importantly a path to the outside world beyond that of their old habitat.

[Three Wolves In Snow]

Originally Posted by jertheber

...I don't think that laying around a cell all day is an acceptable form of rehabilitation, nor do I think the return of the whipping post or chain gangs would do much good either. Prisoners need to work, period. They need to have a life of structure that includes work, education, responsibility, and most importantly a path to the outside world beyond that of their old habitat.

Exactly. Far too many ARE allowed to lie around in their cells all day being completely unproductive. This is why I stated earlier that some prisons are NOT hard enough. Reading through my post it's clear that I am not advocating harsh and inhumane treatment but I am most certainly advocating that they get up off of their butts and DO something all day long. If they are not in school, they need to be working. In many prisons, a job is a reward. That is understandable for some jobs but there is plenty of work to do that any inmate can be doing instead of lying on their bunks eating snacks from the commissary and watching their cable t.v.

They should have the choice to either further their education or work. They should still get their recreation time, they should still be allowed to socialize, they should still get their three meals a day and if the inmates make enough money for the prison that everyone gets cable, I don't care about that. I just care that too many are doing nothing, all day, every day.

They need to be doing something that is beneficial to their lives. THAT is where a LOT of the problem lies.