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Indeed,
However how many offenses go unseen or corrected? Could it only be a hate crime if consisting physical harm or overly despicable? I'm certain you know of or witness inequalities to those of a darker pigmentation.
It is wrong and tragic.
Well that comes down to the same issues faced in other sectors of the legal system, you have to PROVE intent. That's extremely hard to do unless you can literally put GOD on the stand as a key witness. For instance you can be denied a job because you are 55 years old, and that's illegal, but you cant actually PROVE it.
Italy also attracts the best and brightest. But then they waste all that talent and make their immigrants become street sweepers. At least in America, a go-getter can carve out a life that is better than being a street sweeper. They will still deal with racist crapola. But at least they have the opportunity to prosper.
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Blacks encounter harassment from the police in all majority white countries, and indeed often come from countries where the cops are maybe even worse.
So that isn't the point. The question is, given the racism, and xenophobia, which societies offer the most opportunities for immigrants of color to achieve upward mobility.
It is in the Anglo Saxon nations where this is most possible.
As for Italy. If a Nigerian engineer finds that he is limited to sweeping streets in Rome, he will tell all the folks back home about this. Not only will they find some where else to go, but the Nigerian will move to the UK where, despite the biases against him as an immigrant, and as a black man, upward mobility will be more possible.
The diversity of the USA and the civil rights movement among both blacks and Hispanics forced that nation to take a good look at itself. Canada, the UK, and more recently Australia were impacted by the USA, both in terms of what it did right, and what it did wrong, so have engge dpolicies and attitudes which have made upward mobility more possible.
This isn't to say that the USA, Canada, the UK and Australia can thump their chests and boast a post racial world, as some are inclined to, as there is still rampant institutional racism in those societies.
It is the countries like Spain Italy, and France were such mobility is more likely to be blocked, even as, for some twisted reason, think that they are less racist than the Anglo Saxons. Indeed I have been told by French blacks (both African and Antillean) that they best way to achieve upward mobility is to move to London or NYC, get a good job, and the move back to France as a corporate transfer.
I don't understand why you keep on focusing either on "Africans"
Perhaps because African illegals can't cross an Ocean while Mexican ones can cross a border? (across which there's a wall by the way).
PS. If you look for racism, look at the comments in your article about Cécile Kyenge.
You must be a truly simple person if you are going to compare ethnic riots in the USA from the time of its foundation in 1620 with country like Italy where even you admit that significant immigration of visibly non white people didn't begin until the early 90s. In addition the USA is a much larger nation than is the USA.
In addition the black, Hispanic, Native American, and Asian populations in the USA is DOUBLE that of the ENTIRE population of Italy. if FORTY % of the population of Italy was non white, as is the case of the USA, how would the indigenous people of Italy react? Because with that comes groups who demand inclusion in the governance of the country, and their own space in defining the identity of the country.
Think Italy is ready for that?
OK you want to use Albanians as a gauge as to how Italy treats immigrants. So why don't we use Canadians as a gauge as to how the USA treats immigrants? Two European vs. two North American groups.
My focus is on black populations because this the group which faces the most intense racism in majority white countries and indeed the horrendous treatment of Cecile Kyenge shows that Italy is no exception to that.
In the USA EVRY ONE who is BORN here is automatically a citizen, even if their parents are ILLEGAL. What is so illogical about that. And doesn't the fact that Italy is clearly uncomfortable with non white immigrants not suggest that she had a key role to play? And indeed she was definitely a reconciliatory and not a confrontational type.
The Northern League are an OFFICIAL group and have seats in parliament. No one seated in the US Congress or Senate will dare to throw a banana at Obama, nor call him a baboon. Neither will they dare to that to the Attorney General, who like Obama is the SON of black immigrants. Nor Collin Powel, ANOTHER son of black immigrants.
So if one wants to analyze the extent to which a nation isn't racist against immigrants then one will need to see how successful the black immigrants to that country are. You refuse to do this because then Italy will look terrible when compared to the USA.
You can say all you want that Italy isn't racist, but alas you cannot furnish proof. Indeed you furnish ample evidence to support the fact that it is xenophobic. You just want to find excuses to justify it.
I asked you to cite examples of VISIBLY non white in Italy who are as successful, and as accepted as the many black, Hispanic and Asian leaders in the political and business environments in the USA. You seem unable to cite even ONE.
And having seen how Kyenge was treated in Italy. You are right. NO SANE AFRICAN PROFESSIONAL will migrate to that bigoted nation!
Perhaps because African illegals can't cross an Ocean while Mexican ones can cross a border? (across which there's a wall by the way).
This is at least the fourth post where you have referred to a wall between Mexico and the USA. What wall are you referring to? There is not, nor has there ever been, a true barrier between the two nations. Heck, for the most part there aren't even fences.
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I asked you to cite examples of VISIBLY non white in Italy who are as successful, and as accepted as the many black, Hispanic and Asian leaders in the political and business environments in the USA. You seem unable to cite even ONE.
You pointed this out in the beginning of your post but it's apples and oranges to compare a place like Italy (or Korea or Botswana) to a country like the US or Canada.
Unless you belong to a federally recognized tribe there are no Americans who didn't come from somewhere else in the last 400 years. Our culture is a melange of every culture and none of us have much of a right to say that no one else is welcome (that's not to say that we can't or shouldn't set limits on how many people are allowed to come here).
Modern Italians (or Koreans or Quechua) can trace their histories back thousands of years in the same place. Their cultures and languages are continuous (If you speak Italian you can read Latin with some degree of success). That's their homeland. They have a right to ensure the longevity of those cultures and languages. I happen to think that includes allowing some people from other countries to become Italian but that's still for them to determine how many and when.
I'm not pardoning Italian racism - I'm just saying that European and Asian countries shouldn't be compared to New World, immigrant countries like the US, Australia, Argentina, Brazil, etc. because they are fundamentally different on a cultural level.
Not having a history of immigration, but being quite eager to migrate to live elsewhere, doesn't give Italians a right to be bigoted to the point where people in elected office engage in throwing bananas at a government minister.
It is quite clear that non white immigrants have more opportunities for upward mobility in the USA, Canada and the UK than they do in Spain, France and Italy. So, rather than denying that fact they should fix their problems.
Not having a history of immigration, but being quite eager to migrate to live elsewhere, doesn't give Italians a right to be bigoted to the point where people in elected office engage in throwing bananas at a government minister.
It is quite clear that non white immigrants have more opportunities for upward mobility in the USA, Canada and the UK than they do in Spain, France and Italy. So, rather than denying that fact they should fix their problems.
That's the crucial point dude.
You keep generalising attributing the behaviour of few idiots (and depicted as such in Italy) to 60 million people.
By the way, Cécile Kyenge was elected with PD (Partito Democratico) which is the second most voted party in Italy.
Summing it up the whole point, Europe is NOT racist in its entirety and it's not a hellish nightmare like Caribny believes.
There's racism?
Sure there's but there are many positive things that you omit and view at your pleasure.
Further, it's quite pointless to keep saying "what if x city becomes 90% non white how you'd react".
Why should I desire such a thing? Would you like having Kinshasa full of white Icelandic?
Europe is NOT the US and it will never be.
We are not a continent built on immigration and we don't have those characteristics which made US/Australia/Canada etc so suited to it (first of all space like the whole Europe).
Does this mean we are racist?
No. I'm not against immigration, I'm against uncontrolled immigration which damages us, regular immigrants and the economy they are supposed to help.
The clear-cut point you don't catch is that taking hordes of immigrants does NOT work in Europe because assimilation is much harder than in the US because Europe is much more ancient and complex than the US in this matter.
Moreover, it's obvious there aren't many CEO in Italy because most immigrants are low skilled labourers and in Italy diversity in much newer than in the US.
Secondly, despite this, I pointed out how on the whole in Italy there's not that high inequality in wages, I showed how racist parties are a smallest minority compared to what you believe, I proved how "racist attacks" are even more frequent in the US and how "racist hooligans" are a definitely smallest minority.
Why is Europe so racist for you? Because we don't wish to get overwhelmed by hordes of immigrants (whose skin colour, despite your repeated teasing, isn't that important as in the US) in our own country?
That's the crucial point dude.
You keep generalising attributing the behaviour of few idiots (and depicted as such in Italy) to 60 million people.
By the way, Cécile Kyenge was elected with PD (Partito Democratico) which is the second most voted party in Italy.
Summing it up the whole point, Europe is NOT racist in its entirety and it's not a hellish nightmare like Caribny believes.
There's racism?
Sure there's but there are many positive things that you omit and view at your pleasure.
Further, it's quite pointless to keep saying "what if x city becomes 90% non white how you'd react".
Why should I desire such a thing? Would you like having Kinshasa full of white Icelandic?
Europe is NOT the US and it will never be.
We are not a continent built on immigration and we don't have those characteristics which made US/Australia/Canada etc so suited to it (first of all space like the whole Europe).
Does this mean we are racist?
No. I'm not against immigration, I'm against uncontrolled immigration which damages us, regular immigrants and the economy they are supposed to help.
The clear-cut point you don't catch is that taking hordes of immigrants does NOT work in Europe because assimilation is much harder than in the US because Europe is much more ancient and complex than the US in this matter.
Moreover, it's obvious there aren't many CEO in Italy because most immigrants are low skilled labourers and in Italy diversity in much newer than in the US.
Secondly, despite this, I pointed out how on the whole in Italy there's not that high inequality in wages, I showed how racist parties are a smallest minority compared to what you believe, I proved how "racist attacks" are even more frequent in the US and how "racist hooligans" are a definitely smallest minority.
Why is Europe so racist for you? Because we don't wish to get overwhelmed by hordes of immigrants (whose skin colour, despite your repeated teasing, isn't that important as in the US) in our own country?
3% of your population is non white and yet there is this siege and rant that Italy is being overrun by hordes.
The USA is 40% non white, and yet I don't see any barricades going up nor, despite your claims, riots in the streets. The USA did elect a black president, the SON of an IMMIGRANT (though he didn't stay long). No screaming about "hordes" of immigrants taking over, given that this is due mainly to immigration from Latin America, Asia, the Caribbean and Africa!
Indeed Obama attracted MORE white votes than did the previous FIVE white presidential candidates for the Democratic party!
Get back to me when Cecile Kyenge's kids have the same opportunity. OOOOPs, theu mightn't even be allowed to be CITIZENS.....a policy which she was trying to to change where some Italian born people are DENIED Italian citizenship because of who their parents are.
I haven't seen you make any positive claims about immigration as it impacts Africans in Italy. I hear you say that Italy doesn't like immigrants. Fine we both agree.
I can assure you that I don't walk about terrified that I will be attacked by white hooligans in NYC. That is MORE likely to happen in Milan Yes the supporters of that Northern League merely copying what their MEMBERS IN PARLIAMENT is doing. The same small % of Italians who endorse that madness outnumber the % of blacks in Italy. Did you ever think about how they will feel?
And in fact discussions of race gets so trapped at the level of open bigotry that they can't even advance to discussions of whether the Italian born kids of African immigrants can expect the same opportunities for upward mobility, or even the RIGHT TO BE ITALIAN CITIZENS!
The fact also remains that Italy is a nation which ELECTS morons who are bigots, and where such bigots feel quite COMFORTABLE displaying this behavior. Then you wonder why you get illiterate African street sweepers and not African IT professionals.
I agree with you that to make a claim that all of Europe is more racist than the USA is wrong. The UK isn't, and neither is the Netherlands, nor the Nordic nations. The racism is probably equivalent, though manifested differently.
There is more racism in France, Spain and Italy, and Eastern Europe is a nest of bigotry. Germany isn't a bed of roses either, though open bigotry will not happen, given that nation's negative experience with such bigotry, though eastern Germany I would be less sure about.
Immigration of PRODUCTIVE people is what Italy needs because it is an ageing population with a very low birthrate. So if Italians don't have sufficient kids who will grow up to replace those who will eventually retire, who is going to generate the tax revenues which will pay for all of these retirees? The problem is that Italy isn't attractive PRODUCTIVE immigrants from outside of Europe and the treatment of Kyenge certainly contributes to your country's bad image. Instead you are burdened with people who are a likely drain.
So you will not have the CEO with diverse background which the USA has. The image of the non white immigrant will be African vendors being chased off the streets by the police.
There is a reason why the USA attracts the best and the brightest and Italy attracts the dumbest and the worst. Even a Mexican laborer can dream, and often achieves his dream of owning a home, and starting a business. Every morning in the summer I hear Mexican/Central American landscapers doing their work. They don't work for some American. They are probably self employed and so have become owners of their own businesses. Ditto for the other NON white immigrants to the USA.
So the answer to the question is that the USA offers more opportunities for non white immigrants and is more embracing of diversity. How one can argue that it is more racist, when given those facts becomes interesting.
But rather than focusing on the facts as they exist in 2014 you have to find some riot in 1914.
Last edited by Oldhag1; 09-14-2014 at 04:46 AM..
Reason: Personal attack
The point is, everyone sitting in hearing distance of them were all fine with it when they thought we couldn't understand what they were saying.
Precisely. They see brown skin and assume you "look too stupid" to understand their language. The Frenchies do it too (in Quebec, not just France). Both of those are languages I took in high school and then at Yale. I can't stand how both Germans and Frenchies will talk IN FRONT OF ME in their respective languages assuming that I look too stupid to be able to understand them. And then the jaw-drop surprise when they realise that I DO understand German. Sickening. It makes me want to focus on ASL exclusively so that I can only deal with deaf people - they can still SEE, unlike the Blind, but they treat me slightly better than that.
You pointed this out in the beginning of your post but it's apples and oranges to compare a place like Italy (or Korea or Botswana) to a country like the US or Canada.
Unless you belong to a federally recognized tribe there are no Americans who didn't come from somewhere else in the last 400 years. Our culture is a melange of every culture and none of us have much of a right to say that no one else is welcome (that's not to say that we can't or shouldn't set limits on how many people are allowed to come here).
Modern Italians (or Koreans or Quechua) can trace their histories back thousands of years in the same place. Their cultures and languages are continuous (If you speak Italian you can read Latin with some degree of success). That's their homeland. They have a right to ensure the longevity of those cultures and languages. I happen to think that includes allowing some people from other countries to become Italian but that's still for them to determine how many and when.
I'm not pardoning Italian racism - I'm just saying that European and Asian countries shouldn't be compared to New World, immigrant countries like the US, Australia, Argentina, Brazil, etc. because they are fundamentally different on a cultural level.
"I'm just saying that European and Asian countries shouldn't be compared to New World, immigrant countries like the US, Australia, Argentina, Brazil, etc. because they are fundamentally different on a cultural level?
So, who is to determine whose Culture/Country/Race is important enough to stay continuous? Should a tribe of Native Americans be able the sustain an identity going into the future and Someone with a 1000 year history in Tuscany not be held to the same standard?
It really comes down to Tribalism. "My tribe is more relavent than your tribe".
Last edited by LS Jaun; 11-03-2014 at 10:26 AM..
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