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I am a black person who was born and raised in the UK and spent much of my life there.The last in-your-face racism I experienced there and in Europe was more than two decades ago.You're seriously out of touch with how multi-culturism has evolved in Europe.
I now spend half the year in Florida and half the year in homes I own in the UK and Europe - I get more hassle here in the US than I ever do in Europe.
hey roscoe, i find that really interesting. i am a white girl who grew up in the deep south and there were Klansmen on my city council. really tiny little town. but i was never a racist- i don't know why but even as a small child i knew it was wrong, i just felt it. and i always fought it.
i am also a big reggae fan and i am fascinated with how, in the UK, when west indians started immigrating in, how little of a flap there seemed to be and how it spawned this great musical interchange. the white kids were hanging out with the jamaicans because they all lived in the same council estates- it just seemed to happen so much more peacefully than it would have ever have happened in the american south. we had bull connor and fire hoses and people getting shot and churches bombed. in britain, it seemed like they all just got on with it without a big to-do and even embraced it in certain ways. that kind of makes me proud, since my family is english from way back when they came over to GA from England. I know you guys have the national front, but by and large it seems that the UK distinguishes itself in its ability to accept new cultures into their midst.
hey roscoe, i find that really interesting. i am a white girl who grew up in the deep south and there were Klansmen on my city council. really tiny little town. but i was never a racist- i don't know why but even as a small child i knew it was wrong, i just felt it. and i always fought it.
i am also a big reggae fan and i am fascinated with how, in the UK, when west indians started immigrating in, how little of a flap there seemed to be and how it spawned this great musical interchange. the white kids were hanging out with the jamaicans because they all lived in the same council estates- it just seemed to happen so much more peacefully than it would have ever have happened in the american south. we had bull connor and fire hoses and people getting shot and churches bombed. in britain, it seemed like they all just got on with it without a big to-do and even embraced it in certain ways. that kind of makes me proud, since my family is english from way back when they came over to GA from England. I know you guys have the national front, but by and large it seems that the UK distinguishes itself in its ability to accept new cultures into their midst.
Quite.
Britain has been accepting immigrants from its former colonies since the beginning of the 60s,starting with the Caribbean and then the Indian sub-continent.
That's not to say there hasn't been some serious ethnic tensions along the way because there inevitably has been.
The very real problem now,however, is the rise of drug-related and gang violence between young black males who account for a significantly higher rate of crime than they proportionally represent in the population,particularly in London.
It causes fear and tension and a self-inflicted form of racism in response.
Less racist? That's hard to measure. Let's talk about immigrants, instead.
What i think you can say, first of all, is that many European nations view immigrants, culturally, as "strangers" and outsiders and, secondly, that this view informs their ideas about "integration". In the US, an immigrant becomes integrated once he/she has a job; doesn't break the law, and to a lesser extent speaks English. In many places in Europe, integration is defined in terms of adopting social and cultural norms, meaning they've got to think and behave as natives, which is basically a much higher and unobtainable and immeasurable standard. The more homogeneous the nation's culture, the stricter the view of integration in European terms.
In Denmark, for example, which has some of the strictest immigration, residence and naturalization laws on the planet, a person who immigrated to Denmark and who has become a naturalized citizen is called "a person of another ethnic origin" and so are the children even if they are/were born in Denmark, have a good education and a job and don't break the law (although this term is rarely used for Caucasian immigrants). That is because of the color of their skin and/or their religion.
Actually, when I originally addressed this I spoke of 5 countries, which it noted was among others, and it was not two isolated incidents. That is merely what I chose to give as examples. I know how I was treated in Italy, and it wasn't as well as my four white friends. Even one of them commented on it. Waiters had a tendency to fawn all over them and I did well to get my order taken. It is what it is.
The size of the population of the country has nothing to do with this. If you are saying those nations are just one part of Europe, I agree, but each of our states are part of our nation, so it is no different than when people from other nations make assumptions about the entire United States based a visit to Florida or New York.
I liked living in Europe, but my point is that it isn't as picturesque and quaint as people envision. It definitely isn't free from negative traits either, such as discrimination and crime. The major difference in those perceptions have to do with the free press we have over here. We talk about our dirty laundry.
I wasn't either doubting the accuracy of your stories or saying there aren't any racist in Italy or Germany.
There are and many, but the way a stranger would read your post it would appear that Italy and Germany are somewhat close South Africa during the 1960's where Blacks are mistreated.
One thing may be true: Blacks in Italy are much uncommoner than in France or in the US but this doesn't mean that wherever you go, because of your skin, you'll be treated like an ape.
To give you an example, that episode of labelling a family of Black people "ape" would be something unthinkable to do in a public place.
It might happen privately no doubt (and surely there are people who think that of Blacks) but I can't even imagine that applied in a public context.
Secondly, you took two articles ignoring at the same time that from 2005 to 2012 immigrants have doubles and that Italy is spending 9 million of € per month in helping and rescuing immigrants (Operazione Mare Nostrum).
It suffices to know that reception's centres in Sicily are literally close to collapse because of overcrowding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
France has massive ghettos. And Muslims and other African immigrants are disproportionately represented in France's prisons. Of course, there will be a lower absolute number (and %) there than in the U.S. because we have so many more people of color. I mean, there are more minorities living in Greater Los Angeles than there are in the United Kingdom.
I'm not so concerned with overt racism as there's not much of it in the western world today (though there is decidely more of it in Europe). I think more about the progress of minorities in these societies. In the U.S., we've come much farther in this respect than anyone else.
At first, I want to clarify one point: I am not saying that the US are overtly racist or else, I'm sustaining that Europe isn't the hellhole of racism and abuse some people seem to think.
France has an ambivalent position in this: from one point it is probably the country where anger towards immigration is the highest (the massive support for Front National supports this view) but at the same time is the country where immigrants (mostly from former-colonies) can really integrate well (also considering that they already speak French).
A big problem are banlieues and the fact that the scholastic system in France establishes that kids MUST go to school to the one of their district, regardless of their parents' wishes.
This way, those who lives in the suburbs of big cities are often at disadvantage, yet it must be said many things are changing (although slowly)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee
Basically.
The U.S. accepts more legal immigrants than France, the U.K., Germany, Spain, Italy, the Netherlands, Greece, Sweden and Switzerland combined. In addition to our legal immigrants, we also have far more illegal immigrants than the EU despite having a much smaller population.
All those countries surpass in terms of population the US by roughly 20 million but the US are larger than all of Europe combined (the US is 30 larger than Italy just think that).
So, consider that immigrants are 11,9 % of population in Germany, 9,4 % in Italy,11,6% in France, 13,8 % in Spain,28,9 % in Switzerland,11,7 % in Netherlands, 12,4 % in the UK, 8,9 % in Greece and 15,9 % in Sweden compared to 14,5 % of the US.
Now, it's evident that in comparison the US aren't certainly doing so greater efforts than Europe given that Europe is overcrowded to the utmost and the US certainly less.
So, by logical deduction, is wrong to compare numbers since the US aren't only ONE nation (yes, I know there are 50 states but I don't think they count as independent sovereign nation like in Europe) while you named 9 nations, some of which count less inhabitants than NY (Switzerland,Netherlands,Greece and Sweden), others which counts less than 20% of US population (Italy, France,UK and Spain [the latter even less]) and from all of this you just compared numbers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlowerPower00
Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that European Countries accept illegal immigrants without threat of deportation?
I wonder what would happen if I drove 5 miles down the road and told The Canadians they need to take me because I am fleeing the oppression of America? Would they take me? I doubt it.
Obviously immigrants can face deportation in some cases (if the represent an immediate danger for example) but it is rarely applied(just consider how many immigrants there were in '80s and how many now).
Since January 2014 Italy has received more than 50,000 Syrian immigrants, many of whom didn't have any ID card because they intentionally destroyed, yet they kept them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana
Are you kidding? Most European countries have MUCH stricter immigration laws than the US.
Immigration to Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
**Immigration to Germany as a non-EU-citizen is still limited to skilled workers (individuals with either a university or polytechnic degree or at least 3 years of training together with job experience), students and their immediate family members. Germany knows 3 types of immigration titles: Visa (validity of up to 90 days), residence permit and settlement permit (permanent residence). Work permits – if granted – are no longer issued independently but included within the immigration title and are available for foreigners that either fall into one of the several available permit categories (IT specialists, company trained specialist within a group of companies, managing personnel, scientists, highly skilled workers with exceptional income, etc.) or can prove a public interest in the employment. The categories and all requirements are listed in the ordinance on employment.[2]. . . As Germany does not allow immigration without cause, it is necessary to be either enrolled with a school or university, have a specific job offer that fits the requirements of one of the work permit categories or intend to reunify with close family (spouse or minors) already within Germany (family reunification visa).
After obtaining a university degree, foreign students may stay for one year to find a job that matches their qualifications.**
Actually, read the whole article. Just an example from one country.
Then explain us how it comes than almost in all of Europe the percentage of immigrants is up to 9%. All legal ones who comes after a degree? I don't think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny
Oh really. We do hear about how African immigrants are treated in Europe. We also hear of white supremacist and xenophobic groups having seats in parliament, despite the fact that, I some cases they have had a history of race based violence.
There are 11 million undocumented migrants living in the USA, many owning homes, and businesses. I just can't imagine that in Europe, where most are likely to be confined to sweeping the streets.
Blacks are 13% of the US population, and Hispanics 17%. When you adjust for the different demographics the jails of the UK and France are just as filled with non whites, even more so than in the USA. Indeed even a former PM of the UK ranted about the violence prone Afro Caribbean culture, this in a society where random violence and vandalism has long been a feature of its native white under class.
The ghettoes are France look quite fearsome and I don't think that the housing estates in the UK are great places to live either.
Now tell us in which continent to black immigrants do better, North America (USA and Canada) or Europe (inclusive of the UK)?
There are thousands of black immigrants from Europe living in the USA. Interested to find out how many blacks migrate to Europe. And spare us the pre civil rights movement of black American artists to France.
The USA is way more open to immigrants than is ANY country in Europe. We aren't under the "culturally deracinate yourself... or else" that most f Europe is under.
When Europe ELECTS their first non white head of state with immediate immigrant roots then Europeans can talk.
The USA certainly has its problems but so does Europe and indeed continental Europe often appears barbaric with goon squads randomly attacking non whites who are minding their own business.
Obviously Blacks fare better in the US where they number many (and despite this they are behind whites in all ranks from wages to healthcare to education to services) more than Europe, where Blacks have been rarely considered a problem.
There are 5,5 million of legal immigrants and at least 2 illegals wandering all across the country.
This is for Italy which numbers 60 million inhabitants (compared to 330 million of US) and is 301,000 km^2 large (compared to 9,000,000 km^2 of the US).
Plus, xenophobic groups have indeed a seats (most often they are less than 1% of voters) because European countries are much more pluralistic than the US where you mostly have either Republican or Democrats (yes, there are other parties but how much do they count?).
And yes, the US is more open to the immigrants because the US have been created by immigrants.
What would the US be without the million of Germans, English,Italian, Blacks and other important groups which constitute the US?
Europe in this field is much more different: we are, as obvious, much older, we have an different ethnic background and more more solid nations where there are smaller ethnic differences.
That's why immigration is such an issue in Europe: also adding that Europe is small, overcrowded and dense.
Less racist? That's hard to measure. Let's talk about immigrants, instead.
What i think you can say, first of all, is that many European nations view immigrants, culturally, as "strangers" and outsiders and, secondly, that this view informs their ideas about "integration". In the US, an immigrant becomes integrated once he/she has a job; doesn't break the law, and to a lesser extent speaks English. In many places in Europe, integration is defined in terms of adopting social and cultural norms, meaning they've got to think and behave as natives, which is basically a much higher and unobtainable and immeasurable standard. The more homogeneous the nation's culture, the stricter the view of integration in European terms.
In Denmark, for example, which has some of the strictest immigration, residence and naturalization laws on the planet, a person who immigrated to Denmark and who has become a naturalized citizen is called "a person of another ethnic origin" and so are the children even if they are/were born in Denmark, have a good education and a job and don't break the law (although this term is rarely used for Caucasian immigrants). That is because of the color of their skin and/or their religion.
So, you decide.
This is pretty much spot on.
Europe has had centuries of tradition, monarchy, and kingdoms that were more or less ethnically homogeneous for a very long time. So Africans who show up to the party nearly 1,000 years late are expected to check their culture at the door. Even then, they may still never be fully accepted as French/Swedish/Danish because the concepts of nationality and ethnicity in many European countries have been fused together for so long.
Well, a lot of the black British have roots that came from West Indies colonies and African countries strongly influenced by British colonialism, so they're coming from it with a different perspective.
Who's to say that British West Indies culture is any less of a "Black" identity than Black US American culture? Both are equally New World cultures, developed over similar numbers of generations apart from Africa. It's just that British blacks might have migrated to the actual country/land of Britain a lot later, but remember West Indians were technically a part of Britain or the British empire itself until colonialism ended in the 60s; they still have ancestors gone through the same experiences of slavery, had to deal with struggles living under whites, and in some cases alongside other races (in the Caribbean).
Sometimes it feels like in certain places in the US, black identity is only equated with those of blacks whose ancestors came pre-1960s and assumed to be monolithic rather than acknowledging that blacks can have many cultures, just like whites, Asians etc.
You didn't understand what I was saying.
The African American story began in 1619 in Virginia. Since that time, there have been TONS of Black people in the New World. Black Americans have an identity that is inextricably linked to America. There is no "home country" for most American blacks other than small towns in Virginia, the Carolinas or Georgia. So in essence, Black American culture is quintessentially American because it's developed on these shores over the course of 400 years.
That's not the case in Britain. Blacks just arrived in Britain en masse. Consequently, you don't have a British version of historically black colleges, the NAACP, the Urban League, Cornel West, Jack & Jill, black television and cinema, etc.
Europe has had centuries of tradition, monarchy, and kingdoms that were more or less ethnically homogeneous for a very long time. So Africans who show up to the party nearly 1,000 years late are expected to check their culture at the door. Even then, they may still never be fully accepted as French/Swedish/Danish because the concepts of nationality and ethnicity in many European countries have been fused together for so long.
"Check their culture at the door": it couldn't have been said better and, yes, the smearing over of cultural differences, with the broad brush of nationalism (Danish exceptionalism) has been so profound in Denmark that members of the Jewish community were generally identified as Danes, first, and Jews only as an afterthought. This may be why Jewish culture was allowed to thrive in Denmark in stark contrast to the current-day treatment afforded Muslim culture in recent years, something that is both ironic and paradoxical.
Barcelona striker Samuel Eto'o and Espanyol goalkeeper Carlos Kameni have suffered and spoken out against the abuse. In 2006, Real Zaragoza player Ewerthon stated: "the Spanish Federation have to start taking proper measures and we as Afro-European players also have to act."
In a 2013 survey of 80 countries by the World Values Survey, Canada ranked among the most racial tolerant societies in the world. Canadians freely use the term "visible minority" to refer to all people of colour. The UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination told Canada that the term “Visible Minority” is offensive and racist.
I have in-laws and outlaws of immediate European heritage as well as Black American heritage and honestly it is a difficult tightrope to traverse and not because of racism on any family member's part but rather, as in real life, it all boils down to...'fear', 'xenophobia', 'stereotypes', and 'generalizations'.
That being said, I decided not to quote anyone's post because it has the potential to become argumentative and be reduced to 'finger pointing' and ultimately (perhaps) the proverbial 'urinating contest'.
Let's be forthright and fair in our true understanding here..."Racism of various forms is found in every country on Earth, albeit at different rates and nature of incidents. Racism is widely condemned throughout the world..."
Everyone of us have had our own personal experiences and truth be told we could recall instances to support any side of the...'truth'.
hey roscoe, i find that really interesting. i am a white girl who grew up in the deep south and there were Klansmen on my city council. really tiny little town. but i was never a racist- i don't know why but even as a small child i knew it was wrong, i just felt it. and i always fought it.
i am also a big reggae fan and i am fascinated with how, in the UK, when west indians started immigrating in, how little of a flap there seemed to be and how it spawned this great musical interchange. the white kids were hanging out with the jamaicans because they all lived in the same council estates- it just seemed to happen so much more peacefully than it would have ever have happened in the american south. we had bull connor and fire hoses and people getting shot and churches bombed. in britain, it seemed like they all just got on with it without a big to-do and even embraced it in certain ways. that kind of makes me proud, since my family is english from way back when they came over to GA from England. I know you guys have the national front, but by and large it seems that the UK distinguishes itself in its ability to accept new cultures into their midst.
There is a huge cultural interchange between blacks and whites in the South. Elvis Presley is a clear example of this.
The UK has had its share of racial violence as well and indeed the National Front, a party which actually contested and got votes in elections, was also very involved in violent attacks, especially against South Asians. That will be as if the KKK contested elections as the KKK.
Barcelona striker Samuel Eto'o and Espanyol goalkeeper Carlos Kameni have suffered and spoken out against the abuse. In 2006, Real Zaragoza player Ewerthon stated: "the Spanish Federation have to start taking proper measures and we as Afro-European players also have to act."
In a 2013 survey of 80 countries by the World Values Survey, Canada ranked among the most racial tolerant societies in the world. Canadians freely use the term "visible minority" to refer to all people of colour. The UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination told Canada that the term “Visible Minority” is offensive and racist.
I have in-laws and outlaws of immediate European heritage as well as Black American heritage and honestly it is a difficult tightrope to traverse and not because of racism on any family member's part but rather, as in real life, it all boils down to...'fear', 'xenophobia', 'stereotypes', and 'generalizations'.
That being said, I decided not to quote anyone's post because it has the potential to become argumentative and be reduced to 'finger pointing' and ultimately (perhaps) the proverbial 'urinating contest'.
Let's be forthright and fair in our true understanding here..."Racism of various forms is found in every country on Earth, albeit at different rates and nature of incidents. Racism is widely condemned throughout the world..."
Everyone of us have had our own personal experiences and truth be told we could recall instances to support any side of the...'truth'.
So skin color is important in Canada?
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