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Not even close. Europe is many degrees more racist than the US. It is not that the US has better people but that dealing with racial diversity is very recent in Europe. They are many decades behind. Not even close.
This.
From my travels in Europe (and I've been to just about all the major cities there), what I find is that they're culturally diverse - as in you can find white people from different parts of Europe spread across the continent - but they're still nowhere near being as racially diverse as the US. Take a stroll down any street in Manhattan and you'll see just about every shade of skin color imaginable, not to mention hear a dozen different languages being spoken. I didn't see the same kind of racial diversity in Europe, not by a mile.
This doesn't of course say much about whether or not Europeans are more racist than Americans, but I do agree they have a ways to go in "catching up" as far as racial diversity is concerned.
The US is also far more politically correct so that prevents people from being openly hostile to individuals of other races, at least in the large metropolises.
Click on the link below. This was an excellent investigational piece by ESPN's Jeremy Schaap. Every American should watch this video. It will make you appreciate your country that much more. There is no major sporting contest in this country where an entire section of fans are holding up nazi flags and throwing bananas on the field at black players. In this country, they would stop the game before they would allow anyone in the crowd to do that. And that person would be handcuffed and taken to jail. Europe is incredibly racist.
Moderator note: this post along with the first couple of pages were moved from another thread with a related topic, where it had started veering off topic. This there was enough interest this thread was created rather than delete all the posts.
And don't just focus on the WHITE racism in Europe. Focus on the racist attitudes of the Muslim subculture too, for starters.
We just returned from Romania, where we visited with some relatives of a friend then hired a guide for a few days.
ONE. I'd been warned ahead of time not to comment on or seemingly judge Romanian attitudes towards the Roma (Gypsies). It appeared to be perfectly acceptable for Romanians to openly express disgust towards the Roma using blatant racial terminology. That's not to say all Romanians share those views but those that do seemed to feel free to express them. (Given that we'd been told not to ourselves raise the topic, I was surprised by how many Romanians did.)
As a visitor I tried to follow the advice given to ignore the beggars, many of whom were children -- until a young boy approached our table at an outdoor cafe. Usually there was a railing or shrubbery separating diners from the surprisingly numerous beggars. This time, not. After he stood at our table for about 5 minutes, I spontaneously offered him an untouched sandwich thinking he really wanted money and perhaps would then leave.
Usually the begging is done in a monotone with downcast eyes. At my offer, he immediately made eye contact and excitedly gestured at my daughter's half-finished sweet sauce-covered crepe. Could he have that? Stunned, I nodded at which he point he scooped it up in his hands and shoved it whole into his mouth.
Well the waiter had a FIT. I'm not sure if he was madder at me or the boy. I get that the waiters get tired of shooing the Roma away, but to him the hungry boy seemed no more than a troublesome object. Really.
Once home I read a lot about the Roma and have some appreciation of the difficulties faced by European countries in trying to integrate them into a modern economy.
TWO. We talked extensively with our guide about his varying experiences with and impressions of the various nationalities who were his clients. Not surprisingly, one of the comments about us Americans were that we tend to be loud! There were few groups around, and almost no Americans but at one locale we came upon a group of high schoolers. Our guide immediately pointed out the loudness and a couple of other behaviors - really, I had to agree with him!!! By this time, we'd established a pretty good rapport for he was a heck of a nice guy, very well educated and informed.
Then he asked - What do you notice about this American student group that is DIFFERENT? I couldn't see it - expensive clothing, cameras ? Lots of exuberance in the facial expressions ? No, he said - they are MIXED. Sure enough. At least one-third to maybe almost half were African-American, East Asian, Southern Asian, Latino. Our guide's tone was one of strong disapproval. Probably noticing I was taken aback he muttered an explanation - "They have lost their culture." (He was very proud that Romanian blood was untainted by invading Mongols etc.)
My personal take is that when ethnicity/race do - for whatever reason - happen to become an issue, Europeans are less accepting than many Americans who live in an society where multiculturalism and multiracial integration are VALUES, even though we don't always practice them.
Sure, and that's scientific racism, not the concept of whiteness.
Germans reckoned Italians on par with other inferiour races because of "Mediterraneaness".
The concept of "whiteness" as you mean (white/black) is much more complex in Europe than in the US: 100 years ago, Italian immigrants were considered slightly better than Africans, despite their supposed whiteness.
And while Black were affected by Nazism, it was Slavs (a white race) the main enemy of Nazis, not Blacks.
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Their descendants differ from Europeans.
Europeans were (and partially are) racist, no doubt about that and they committed heinous crimes.
But the concept of whiteness, segregation, apartheid was born and enacted OUTSIDE Europe, mostly in Independent dominions (South Africa,Australia) or countries (US).
No doubt (although Muslims were given citizenship, slavery was abolished in Ethiopia and Eritreans were among the loyalest askaris ever).
No doubt but isn't perhaps also because in Italy immigration is totally uncontrolled and there's almost no deportation?
And the US is the country where Blacks are often relegated into ghettos, shot by police officers and who get heavier detentions, so?
Since you deliberately ignore whatever go against your rant about cruelest Europeans who seemingly should welcome every single non European, I won't even bother to correct the falsities in your statements.
Immigrants make up 9,4 % of populace in Italy, whereas in the US is 14,3 %.
Now, considering the history of the US, its laws (nationality by jus soli) etc, isn't evident how Italy is experiencing A LOT of immigration?
The US take up their strength from immigration: the US are a melting pot, that's their peculiarity and Europe is different (and different doesn't mean worse), end.
Why should we concede citizenship just by having birth here?
In Europe there are racist, no doubt, but saying that Europe is more racist than the US when:
a) Europe is half the size of US, with almost the double of population and a much higher density.
Despite this, Europe has received almost 60 million immigrants in the latest decades.
b) Europe has an extensive welfare system which works for immigrants as well.
c) Italy alone has saved 100,000 people (most of them NOT refugees) in the last 6 months.
d) Europe is much more different than the US in terms of culture, languages and customs.
African Americans are African by "ethnicity" and American by culture, that's it.
Middle Eastern immigrants might be white (as you keep on putting the question on the skin's colour) but they are totally different in terms of custom,language,culture and religion.
e)Europe is NOT built on immigration, it's NOT the US and we don't want to be.
Why should we be flooded with hundreds of thousands of immigrants?
Why should we desire it?
Europe has a lot of faults but why should it the average citizen to pay for it?
If the USA is so racist then why do black immigrants have median household incomes of about 80%-110% of the median WHITE household income, depending on their national origin? This is EARNED income. Not welfare, which we US based immigrants don't think too highly of. We didn't migrate to become societal burdens and parasites.
The USA attracts large numbers of immigrants and among them many PROFESSIONALS because it is seen as a society where foreigners can succeed if they work hard and learn the hard and soft skills which they will need to establish themselves. Yes there is racism and bias, but there are also possibilities. The laisse-faire nature of US society makes it easier for people to find their niche.
CONTINENTAL Europe is seen as xenophobic and hostile and so those immigrants who can do better refuse to go. So you get the political and economic refugees. What future do you offer those people?
The USA has black president, and several major US corporations, including American Express and Microsoft, have blacks at the helm. Either serving as the CEO or as the Chairman. Time Warner was, until recently, chaired by a black man. Ditto Merrill Lynch. Xerox is headed by a BLACK WOMAN. Oprah Winfrey is a media mogul. She was born into poverty, and now is the wealthiest woman who didn't benefit from an inheritance.
Can you cite examples of non whites in CONTINENTAL Europe who have achieved the levels of empowerment described. Use France as an example as it has a huge population of Arabs, Africans and French Antilleans, many having been there for generations.
Yes the USA has terrible issues of income inequality and it is a "sink or swim" society, but that is another thread, as many poor whites are tumbling into serious problems and drug addiction and alcoholism, with the attendant social problems is now more a WHITE problem than it is a black problem.
Blacks in Europe also complain about police harassment and unfair arrests as well. The fact that there aren't more shot lies in the fact that it is undeniable that the USA is a more violent society. But in the UK and in France people of color have much higher arrest rates than do whites.
So here is the deal. In Europe Africans are a nuisance, while in the USA they are seen as an asset. Why? Because Europe gets the street sweepers and the USA gets the doctors and engineers.
But then Mexico, until recently, was also a problem, as is Central America. 60,000 UNACCOMPANIED CHILDREN have arrived in the USA for THIS YEAR ALONE 11 million UNDOCUMENTED migrants in the USA. Many own homes, quite a few own businesses which HIRE US CITIZENS!
Why does CONTINENTAL Europe fail to attract the best and the brightest immigrants, only getting those desperate to escape starvation. Note that the USA does NOT recruit immigrants. They make their own decision to migrate there. The MAJORITY of those migrating to the USA legally do so under family unification programs.
The USA continues to deal with its legacy of racism. A system of racism which was DEVELOPED when it was a colony of the UK, and perpetrated by the descendants of Europeans.
White Americans DID NOT learn about racism in the USA, nor did they suddenly develop notions of superiority over blacks. The fact that racism against blacks in the USA might have been more severe is only because, in the minds of paranoid whites, they represented more of a threat. FORTY per cent of the population in some Southern states.
But we see in Europe as non white populations increase, so does the animosity against them!
The notion that Europe is less racist is a joke. At least the USA is trying to resolve their problem, and achieving levels of success. The UK, closely tied to the UK, is attempting to do the same.
CONTINENTAL Europe, aside from the Netherlands. Do not make me laugh. The best you can claim is being "heroic" by rescuing drowning refugees, as if any society would let them die. My question is what HAPPENS to those people after they get rescued. WE do hear about the virtual concentration camps where some of them live, and the open hostility that they face from the locals.
If the USA is so racist then why do black immigrants have median household incomes of about 80%-110% of the median WHITE household income, depending on their national origin? This is EARNED income. Not welfare, which we US based immigrants don't think too highly of. We didn't migrate to become societal burdens and parasites
In the "RACISTEST" Italy they earn up to 100 % (sometimes even more since they do find a job) than Italians, immigrants who are NOT here since generations like African-Americans!
This are SALARIES not welfare, don't ignore facts.
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The USA attracts large numbers of immigrants and among them many PROFESSIONALS because it is seen as a society where foreigners can succeed if they work hard and learn the hard and soft skills which they will need to establish themselves. Yes there is racism and bias, but there are also possibilities. The laisse-faire nature of US society makes it easier for people to find their niche.
Because IT IS a society made up of immigrants!
Don't you see the difference?
Europe is the double in terms of population of the U and less than half in terms of size, how can we receive other hordes of immigrants?
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CONTINENTAL Europe is seen as xenophobic and hostile and so those immigrants who can do better refuse to go. So you get the political and economic refugees. What future do you offer those people?
Europe (which is not a country by the way and differs much more than you think) is seen that way by YOU.
You also fail to mention how those 11 million were largely low skilled workers whose best future will be to be a cashier at McDonalds and hope to learn the language.
Guess any similarity with hordes of low skilled immigrants invading Europe?
Did it escape to you that Europe as close to Africa as the US are to Mexico?
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The USA has black president, and several major US corporations, including American Express and Microsoft, have blacks at the helm. Either serving as the CEO or as the Chairman. Time Warner was, until recently, chaired by a black man. Ditto Merrill Lynch. Xerox is headed by a BLACK WOMAN. Oprah Winfrey is a media mogul. She was born into poverty, and now is the wealthiest woman who didn't benefit from an inheritance.
How many companies have Mexican CEO?
Let's see that, African Americans are a completely integrated reality within the US, it would be like comparing.
Italian-Albanians are like them and they are here since 1500-1700.
I have seen several Black men in Paris in black suits who worked for corporations.
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Yes the USA has terrible issues of income inequality and it is a "sink or swim" society, but that is another thread, as many poor whites are tumbling into serious problems and drug addiction and alcoholism, with the attendant social problems is now more a WHITE problem than it is a black problem.
And?
Europe has terrible issues too, but label a whole continent who's helping and rescuing million people is completely senseless and arrogant.
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Blacks in Europe also complain about police harassment and unfair arrests as well. The fact that there aren't more shot lies in the fact that it is undeniable that the USA is a more violent society. But in the UK and in France people of color have much higher arrest rates than do whites.
In the US there have been more ethnic riots too and race is much more of an issue than in Europe.
Europe is less different racially (obviously) but that doesn't change the fact that Europe isn't ALL racist and it's pointless to generalise over points like bananas thrown at black players or insults when we are dealing with 600 million people.
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So here is the deal. In Europe Africans are a nuisance, while in the USA they are seen as an asset. Why? Because Europe gets the street sweepers and the USA gets the doctors and engineers.
Europe is flooded with poorly qualified workers also because Europe is closer to Africa, Europe rarely deports and accept everybody as a refugee (even people from countries at peace).
Plus, as I previously pointed out, Europe is NOT built by immigrants, we are NOT the US.
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Why does CONTINENTAL Europe fail to attract the best and the brightest immigrants, only getting those desperate to escape starvation. Note that the USA does NOT recruit immigrants. They make their own decision to migrate there. The MAJORITY of those migrating to the USA legally do so under family unification programs.
How many people can reach the US through the Ocean?
How many illegals come from another country rather than Mexico?
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The USA continues to deal with its legacy of racism. A system of racism which was DEVELOPED when it was a colony of the UK, and perpetrated by the descendants of Europeans.
Sure, and then largely kept when the Britons had abolished slavery and were fighting all over the world to heal that plague (a credit they rarely get).
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But we see in Europe as non white populations increase, so does the animosity against them!
Yet there have been less ethnic riots or shooting than in the US, curious.
Yes, Europeans are getting sick of uncontrolled immigration of poorly qualified and barely literate immigrants who dry our welfare system up, lower salaries and heighten unemployment.
It has little to do with skin's colour and more with culture and economical reasons.
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The notion that Europe is less racist is a joke. At least the USA is trying to resolve their problem, and achieving levels of success. The UK, closely tied to the UK, is attempting to do the same.
The problem isn't that Europe is more or less racist than the US, the problem is that you paint Europe like a ****hole full of KKK and nazis, when it's not.
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CONTINENTAL Europe, aside from the Netherlands. Do not make me laugh. The best you can claim is being "heroic" by rescuing drowning refugees, as if any society would let them die. My question is what HAPPENS to those people after they get rescued. WE do hear about the virtual concentration camps where some of them live, and the open hostility that they face from the locals.
Sure, we hear about walls built at the borders with Mexico, about deportations of illegals and families, about issues concerning healthcare and public welfare, about jails filled with non-whites people.
Sure, at the same time in Italy healthcare is given to everybody with MY taxes, immigrants are received and get food, water and clothes, they are rescued from the sea (by the way, US intervention in Libya along with French one is largely responsible for the current situation, add to this giving weapons to Syrian rebels).
Italy, a country plagued by a crysis (started in the US, btw), corruption, mafia and where people get into poverty day by day, has received more than 5,5 million people since 2000, a country of 301,000 km sq (compared to 9 million of the US) and 60 million people (compared to 318 million of the US) and with a density of 201,7 people per km sq (compared to 34,2 of US).
Do you know how much does my region spend on average per immigrant( 50,000 people out of 500,0000)? 1,300 €.
How racist is it?
Europe and Canada have this new-age, mosaic, multi-cultural model. The U.S. has salad bowl model that's slowly going into a melting pot.
The problems with the mosaic model is that your people aren't unified, but instead they're living in close areas--most of whom self-segregate. This is really obvious in Canada with the Chinese-Canadians in the Vancouver area. Chinese come to the place as if they're merely living there, but are still nationalistically Chinese at heart. Thus there's segregation issues, issues of cultural enclosure, unable to identify what exactly is 'Canadian', Chinese don't identify as Canadian, Whites think Chinese are against them. Canadian immigration virtually allows Chinese who will do a bare minimum to help the Canadian economy, flood in and purchase property. I mean issues in Vancouver like "Chinese-only" signs, and Chinese-majority schools are so ridiculous, it reminds me of early 1900's America.
In England, the tensions between Pakistani-Muslims and English society is astounding. Although I never realized its mass until after I saw that there's nearly double the amount of British ISIS troops than soldiers of the UK who are Muslim. But it's part of that illusion that people can co-exist without any real jointing of the cultures. They will collide. And this is the case in all of Europe as well. The immigrants aren't blending with the culture.
This is why Neo-Nazi groups in Europe are so prevalent. People are insecure because it feels like cultures colliding. Meanwhile, in America, the immigrants make an effort to try and come to American culture, while retaining their original aspects. It's bumpy sure, but the conflicts and tensions are less of an issue. America blatantly talks about its racial aspects, most of which stem from older issues such as slavery and segregation, in this Black/White binary. Chinese in America may have cultural run-ins every no and then, but there's a sense that "We're American now", and so they have a more enlightened understanding of themselves and their national society. This applies for all immigrants I've noticed, except Black-Americans, but we're not immigrants.
My Chinese-Canadian roommate was from Richmond, B.C., he remarked about the society of Chinese Canada like this: "In America, you're an American of Chinese decent. In Canada, you're a Chinese living in Canada."
This is just from my perspective and what I've seen in Europe, Canada, and America. And by American Society, I really mean my experiences in California and coastal states.
If you think America is racist go to Spain or Italy. I was there last year for a month and the locals would tell me (I am a white American) that they hate Muslims and Africans. They also were not very fond of South Americans living in their country.
Yet there is almost less discrimination in terms of wage, no shooting, no aggression and no laws against them.
Curious.
We'll never reach racial harmony until certain groups stop whining over the past and bring themselves up to the present. Sure there will still be some racism but the above would help quell much of it.
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
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America has been diverse since day 1. Europe hasn't been and now that they are almost as diverse as us they have major problems. While America is an integration machine most immigrants to Europe don't immigrant and have no interest in doing so. Quite frankly if things don't change Europe will become the Middle East North by the end of the century. They are too politically correct to deport or jail extremist and their population is defenseless given the extreme gun laws.
They used to mock America's high prison population and our armed police. How is the gunless soldiers in the UK doing against the machete flinging jihadists?
Now the USA still has major issues, but I think they are starting to improve. There are honest dialogues about the fact that a higher percent of Black men are in jail for drug possession even though a similar percent of Whites use the same drugs. Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown shootings have opened dialogues about overzealous police / security, even the leading Republican candidate for president (Rand Paul) is talking more about the issue.
In the US, we air most of our ailments to the world to see. National media digs out all the dirt save for a few untouchable issues to maintain its PC stance. Radio and internet broadcasts the rest. Government plays only a tiny roll. In other countries, government and the main media (far more concentrated) collaborate to project a much more benign view of a country that one sees in the streets.
The effect is to make the US seem much more scary than it is and to make Europe seem like it is more "cultural," to which I laugh (unless culture is defined by the number of old buildings).
In terms of race, the horrors of the racial and cultural clashes that have shaped the US are there for all to see, dissected and debated at incredibly fine levels to the fullest extent that the academy has thus far produced. The worst excesses of the absolutely brutal history of racism in the present US was of near 100% European manufacture, from 1492 until 1783, when the Treaty of Paris was signed. From 1783 until the end of the Mexican War in 1848, UK, Spanish, French, Mexican, and US governments all committed horrible acts of racism toward enslaved Africans and Native peoples. It was then and remained so until the late 1800s, a war of conquest, subjugation and annihilation, the bulk of which was committed by Europeans.
And whatever happened in the present US was even more brutal in places like Brazil (where the vast majority of Africans were enslaved to) and Haiti, where work in the cane fields was considered the most hellish places of all. A side note: global media outrage on the slave roots of these two countries is a microfraction of what the US receives.
Sad to say that once we gained independence, the US did not fully calve itself from this European approach to non-White peoples. The US carried on the policies of its forebearers domestically (sadly this was repeated with Indochina and with the Israel-Palestine conflict--we are always picking up the pieces of incompetence and hatred left by Europe). Although within four generations and despite its economic dependence on slavery, it conducted a bloody Civil War, ended slavery and had black Congressmen and Senators. From the US perspective, four generations was too long and the process deeply antithetical to the enlightenment and Christian beliefs we all share (even if not Christian). So it is therefore shameful and a black mark on our history that we can never erase. But from the European perspective, it must be seen as nothing short of incredible and lightning fast. For the many decades afterwards, Europe proceeded to colonize much of Asia and Africa and channel its racist superiority into empires nearly as brutal as their actions in the Americas.
Following this period, it took another four generations to pass the Civil Rights Act and cement once and for all the rights of all men and women promised in the Constitution. From the US POV, it again took too long a time, too long with a process that was often ugly. Today, the legacy of those eight generations plus the challenges of extending rights to truly all Americans will probably require four more generations (The past two have seen great strides for women and for LGBT peoples.)
Yes, American progress on racial matters has been slow and often ugly, but it has been steady and steadfastly on track toward more freedom, more openness, and more colorblindness. Of this pathway, the US literally stands alone in this world. It has taken the racist DNA of its European roots and managed to transform into a world in which skin color and religious hatred is nearly irrelevant in the our daily actions and beliefs. Pretty incredible.
Modern Europe? It has barely begun to account for its evil past in the Americas, in butchering Asia and Africa from 15th century through the early 20th century, and for leaving the US (and the rest of the Americas) to bear the burden of centuries of European slavery. Then we have the Holocaust against Jews and Roma, only 3+ generations ago. And then we have the great post-WW2 unraveling of empires and the flood of former colonial subjects into most of Europe and into ethnic ghettos of permanent 50% unemployment without access to the corridors of power. Finally, we see the current generation or two, where declining European birthrates have led quite foolishly to the wholesale importation of peoples so completely different from their own and at such speeds as to make absorption near impossible. What then is left are deeply racist peoples willfully ignorant of their racist pasts seething with racism under their breath at a Europe that looks less European every day.
The sad legacy of European institutional racism in the US is black-on-white crime and deeply impoverished pockets of disenfranchised blacks. The roots of this legacy go back to Jim Crow and black codes which go back to the Civil War which go back to the boom of the slave economy in the early 19th century, which all sit on centuries of institutional European slavery and genocide. We will continue to work through our challenges openly and critically for the world to see. And while it won't be pretty at times, on the scale of history the process should be inspiring, hopeless and ever more liberating.
Europe, on the other hand, is only in its first half of the first half of dealing at home with racial diversity. In the past, europeans took a simple approach: annihilation of weaker peoples. Today, without that "easy" card to play, the willful ignorance of its collective past, and its gleeful and oblivious criticism of the US, I am doubtful modern Europe will ever be able to handle questions of race without first destroying itself. The best approach is probably that of the Swiss, who make barriers of entry so high as to make race a tiny factor in immigration. At least they are effectively acknowledging just how difficult it would be to open its doors.
Finally, what lies ahead in the US is not so much racism as dealing with the legacy of what European slavery in the Americas and our less than zealous approach to dealing with that legacy. We have now eight generations of African slaves and their descendents. Many have come to define the American character and are inextricably part of the American identity. But many, perhaps 20% or so, languish in cycles of poverty and violence, either in prisons or in economically destitute and economically-defined enclaves.
The plight of these poor blacks is the challenge of the 21st century, a task made all the more difficult without the global hegemony and booming economy of previous generations. But the nasty treatment they often get has as its roots poverty. It is no longer race as its was under the Europeans. I firmly believe that were that entire disenfranchised populace to rise up into the middle class, racism as we know it in the US will cease to be a dominant topic of conversation. But for now, to deal with the legacy of our racist past and the racial legacy left by Europe will need us to face head on how racial bigotry led to this state of economic despair.
Again, it is not even close. Europe is racist to its core, while the US is not but yet must deal with once and for all the legacy left by European policies toward race. I do not see either changing anytime soon.
S.
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