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Spanish is important in Miami, not because of the immigrants, but because of the fact that the city's economy is fully integrated into Latin America..
Yeah, that is a really good point.
I think sometime there is there narrative pushed that:"look at what happened to Miami: more and more Spanish speakers movedthere, never adopted English, now you practically have to know Spanish there. In 20 years itwill be like that in TX, AZ, SoCal and beyond"
As you point out, that ignores the unique context of Miami. Miami is 1) a major tourist hub and 2)it is a huge Latin American commercial center.
Much of the "essential nature" of Spanish in Miami is because there are so many Latin American visitors, temporary residents, there. People are perfectly fine with knowing languages for foreign languages for international reasons, it's when you tell them they need to learn it to communicate with domestic citizens (and long term residents) it gets tricky.
I saw this first hand in Belgium (I was there for 3 months). The people I know spoke several languages and loved to practice their skills. They saw learning multiple languages as an essential skill for a profession. But, they would always complain about how the French-speakers would never speak Flemish and the various other immigrant groups that didn't speak Flemish. "I will never speak Spanish/Polish/.. to them in Belgium!" Oddly, they seemed OK interacting in English since it was seen as a neutral 3rd language. A couple times, I would start to speak English out of habit and was told to speak Flemish since I was not a tourist anymore.
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Originally Posted by caribny
Any immigrant with ambition will learn English, even as they retain the use of their own languages. I don't know why people get bent out of shape. Just because most Americans are monolingual, doesn't mean that non English speakers are like that..
In fairness, I don't know anyone upset about knowing other languages.
It is the not knowing/using English by long term residents/citizens in domestic contexts that unsettles many people. U.S. government documents in Spanish, having to pay for translators at hospitals, schools, courts, "press 2 for Spanish" for people that live in the US long term.
Of course, there are some "hard liners" who are bothered just by the fact the people may speak to their friends and family on the street in Spanish, but that is a smaller group. When pointed out that these people also know English, and don't need any "special language accommodation" most of the controversy dies down.
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Originally Posted by caribny
The language of government, business, and education will remain English. Sure some social service providers will benefit from knowing Spanish to serve certain populations, and that is a niche that will be filled by bi lingual speakers.
Yeah, I think this is an important point for national leaders to make. The growth of the Hispanic population does not equal the growth of active Spanish use. The 2nd/3rd..generations are going to use English for everything other than maybe around friends and family and as a novelty. Most US Spanish language stuff is just aimed a the 1st generation.
I think this would take a lot of the fire out of the immigration/anti-Hispanic opposition. Of course, there are still legal status, economic and racial sources of opposition.
There was a large cohort of German speakers in colonial North America. Indeed there still exist German speaking communities in parts of the Midwest.
There were also large swathes of cities in the north east and mid west consisted of Italian, Yiddish, and Polish speakers.
I think a limitation to the German analogy is that German immigration basically dried up and Italian/polish immigration was basically shut off by nativist laws. We basically had very little Italian/Polish immigration post 1924.
I also believe there were very strong attempts made to "wipe out" non-English languages, force everyone to speak English. My Italian grandpa said they would never speak Italian on the streets when he was growing up for fear that they would be accused of being disloyal (it was WW11). After the war, they never spoke Italian at home or with friends and he EXPLICITLY never attempted to ever teach his children Italian. He and his siblings always had the "Speak English, We're American attitude."
All this stuff looks foolish/xenophobic in hindsight. But, it does make the analogies to German/Italian at least a little different.
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Originally Posted by caribny
I suspect most of the angst about Spanish speakers is that they aren't white.
Yeah, there is some of that. Particularly, since the perception is that Spanish speakers tend to be lower income, less educated.
But in fairness, language is always a divisive issue. See language battles between white people in Belgium and Canada or xenophobia against Eastern Europeans in Western Europe.
Going around and saying that people who are apprehensive about the role of Spanish in the US are racists is only going to inflame the situation. Let's face it, Spanish in the US today has a role unlike any other non-English speaking language. When you go to Healthcare.gov (a program specifically limited to US citizens) there is a prominent button for "Espanol" at the top of the page. There is not button for Russian, etc. There is no "Press 3" for Farsi when you call a 1-800 number. Very little if any presidential campaigning in Mandarin.
There are many people who see all of these thing and worry the US will turn into a linguistically balkanized society. These concerns aren't racist. Even if yeah, some people are racist.
Even the belief that English should the "official language" for government and business isn't really racist.
It seems the better route is to stress that English is always going to remain the official language and Spanish is just the most prominent immigrant language. Immigrants accept that the US in an English speaking nation. Futures generation may learn Spanish and maybe even speak it around families, but they will know English solid and there will be no need to ever speak to them in Spanish (unless you want to).
Of course, Spanish will never become legally mandatory. But, will it become an essential skill for those working with the general public (health care, relators, retail, lawyers, social workers, call centers, etc)?
The use of Spanish has grown over the past 30 years in the US as the Hispanic immigrant population has grown rapidly.
At the same time, surveys show that 2nd generation Hispanics switch from primarily speaking Spanish to being either Bilingual or English dominant. They maybe speak Spanish with family and with some other Spanish speakers, but primarily use English at work, the store, the doctor, and watch English media.
Will the growth in active Spanish language use (not necessarily knowledge) level off as the Hispanic population becomes more 2nd/3rd/4th generation? Spanish services will remain primarily for immigrants, while the later generations use it basically as a 2nd language (if at all). Similar to other immigrant groups.
Or will Hispanics become more like the French-speakers in Quebec where they increasingly retain Spanish as their primary language for general communication. Society will have to become bilingual to adjust. If you want native-born Hispanic viewers, consumers, church goers, or voters, you will need to address them in Spanish?
I say it will become like your last sentence, unfortunately. With illegal immigration continuing and businesses catering to Spanish speakers in their native tongue assimilation to English as their primary language of usage is doubtful.
As for native English speaking Americans or other non-Hispanic Americans having to learn Spanish to accommodate them....no way!
Location: WNY (NOT NYC for the geographically challenged)
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It might just be me, but I've been hearing LESS Spanish spoken in my area in recent years, compared to say 10 years ago. I think more Spanish speakers are learning English than some may have you believe.
Of course, Spanish will never become legally mandatory. But, will it become an essential skill for those working with the general public (health care, relators, retail, lawyers, social workers, call centers, etc)?
The use of Spanish has grown over the past 30 years in the US as the Hispanic immigrant population has grown rapidly.
At the same time, surveys show that 2nd generation Hispanics switch from primarily speaking Spanish to being either Bilingual or English dominant. They maybe speak Spanish with family and with some other Spanish speakers, but primarily use English at work, the store, the doctor, and watch English media.
Will the growth in active Spanish language use (not necessarily knowledge) level off as the Hispanic population becomes more 2nd/3rd/4th generation? Spanish services will remain primarily for immigrants, while the later generations use it basically as a 2nd language (if at all). Similar to other immigrant groups.
Or will Hispanics become more like the French-speakers in Quebec where they increasingly retain Spanish as their primary language for general communication. Society will have to become bilingual to adjust. If you want native-born Hispanic viewers, consumers, church goers, or voters, you will need to address them in Spanish?
Spanish is an official language in some states. I do believe it's a beneficial asset for U.S. Americans to be polyglots. Overall, I believe English should be the main official & national language for the USA, and that states can add any additional languages for their respective states.
I disagree. We do not need an official language. It is one of our true strengths that we don't have one.
There are still pockets of francophone communities in Maine and Louisiana. Puerto Rico has always been hispanophone. And if Hawaiians all decide to quit speaking English one day, that is not any concern to me. None at all. Furthermore, I sincerely hope that Navajo, Cree and Lakota hang on as living languages. The pseudo German spoken by the Amish makes their communities vibrant. And I am glad that Chinese, Korean, Thai and Japanese is spoken in America's various Chinatowns and Little Tokyos and similar.
If someone can get by without speaking English (or very little English, which is the case for many of my in-laws), who cares? I have in-laws who are very difficult to understand, but they are true American success stories -- no matter what of yardstick you care to use.
Their children speak English, and their grandchildren are losing their native language. That's just how it works. I've quit caring about anything so unimportant as language. When you get down to it, nationalism is, "Taking pride in things that you personally did not do, and hating people you personally do not know."
I disagree. We do not need an official language. It is one of our true strengths that we don't have one.
There are still pockets of francophone communities in Maine and Louisiana. Puerto Rico has always been hispanophone. And if Hawaiians all decide to quit speaking English one day, that is not any concern to me. None at all. Furthermore, I sincerely hope that Navajo, Cree and Lakota hang on as living languages. The pseudo German spoken by the Amish makes their communities vibrant. And I am glad that Chinese, Korean, Thai and Japanese is spoken in America's various Chinatowns and Little Tokyos and similar.
If someone can get by without speaking English (or very little English, which is the case for many of my in-laws), who cares? I have in-laws who are very difficult to understand, but they are true American success stories -- no matter what of yardstick you care to use.
Their children speak English, and their grandchildren are losing their native language. That's just how it works. I've quit caring about anything so unimportant as language. When you get down to it, nationalism is, "Taking pride in things that you personally did not do, and hating people you personally do not know."
Well, I disagree with you. English should be our official language on the federal level. It is a part of our heritage and culture. It is the most widely spoken language in this country by far. By making English our official language we will no longer have to print government documents in several foreign languages which is a big expense. It would aid in assimilation to our country by immigrants. Far more states have made English their official language than Spanish. In fact I believe only a couple of states have made Spanish their official languages if at all.
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