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If one does not properly stretch before one's run, one could injure oneself.
Or, one could say
If runners do not properly stretch before their runs, they could injure themselves.
Or
Properly stretching before running helps prevent injuries.
If it bothers you to use he or his as gender neutral, just rewrite the sentence to eliminate the problem.
I consider it a quirk of the English language, and, though I am female, it does not bother me. Using their to refer to one person does bother me. That is ambiguous. Did you misspeak? Are we talking about one person or more than one?
Yes, the sentence could be rewritten, as you demonstrated. I'm sure, if I thought about it, I could come up with other examples where rewriting would alter the emphasis or meaning of the sentence. And in speaking, perhaps a person has already started a sentence, then gets to to that point in the sentence where he or she needs a pronoun. Is he or she supposed to stop speaking, and think of how to reword his or her thoughts using "oneself"? Just not very practical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne
I didn't interpret OP's question to be related to "PCness" at all (that is, the topic of gender fluidity, cis/trans, etc). I think he or she is saying that, when someone doesn't know someone else's gender, then there is no good pronoun for him or her to use.
My bolded parts are, obviously, an example of this. This occurs all the time while posting here at CD, and in other situations. In written communication, I generally type "s/he," but to verbalize "he or she" is a bit much.
Quoting myself, because this example of desiring a pronoun for OPs in these forums happens all the time. I certainly don't lose sleep at night over it, but I don't like referring to every OP as a "he." And switching to the generic "one" would not work in this case, as "one" is any random human, whereas OP is a specific person. (There, I knew I could come up with an example where rewriting the sentence with "one" wouldn't work.)
I have always thought it odd that English has a gender neutral plural pronoun, but not a gender neutral singular pronoun. An unfortunate lack, IMO.
Yes, the sentence could be rewritten, as you demonstrated. I'm sure, if I thought about it, I could come up with other examples where rewriting would alter the emphasis or meaning of the sentence. And in speaking, perhaps a person has already started a sentence, then gets to to that point in the sentence where he or she needs a pronoun. Is he or she supposed to stop speaking, and think of how to reword his or her thoughts using "oneself"? Just not very practical.
What you are implying is that there will be instances where there is only one way to convey a thought. I doubt that is true.
It behooves us to think before we speak. That can avoid a great deal of angst.
Quote:
Quoting myself, because this example of desiring a pronoun for OPs in these forums happens all the time. I certainly don't lose sleep at night over it, but I don't like referring to every OP as a "he." And switching to the generic "one" would not work in this case, as "one" is any random human, whereas OP is a specific person. (There, I knew I could come up with an example where rewriting the sentence with "one" wouldn't work.)
I have always thought it odd that English has a gender neutral plural pronoun, but not a gender neutral singular pronoun. An unfortunate lack, IMO.
But there is a gender neutral singular pronoun. What you do not like is that it can also refer to someone who is male. Would it not make just as much sense to say that there should be a different set of pronouns to use that would refer only to males?
What you are implying is that there will be instances where there is only one way to convey a thought. I doubt that is true.
It behooves us to think before we speak. That can avoid a great deal of angst.
I've seen enough of your posts to know you likely don't mean that as snooty as it sounds! I highly doubt you have every sentence of every conversation grammatically planned out ahead of time to avoid ever getting stuck in a "he or she" conundrum.
Quote:
But there is a gender neutral singular pronoun. What you do not like is that it can also refer to someone who is male. Would it not make just as much sense to say that there should be a different set of pronouns to use that would refer only to males?
You can always work around the problem.
Yes, "he" can be considered gender neutral in some instances, such as "He who laughs last laughs longest." But if I were to repeatedly refer to you as "he," you would probably think that strange, if not downright annoying. (I'm assuming that suzy_q is a female. Maybe you're a dude who likes those chocolatey Hostess treat things).
Quote:
Give me a sentence. I'll rewrite it for you!
Ok, let's use the example I used in my first reply in this thread, where the pronoun refers to the OP. And please do not use "OP" instead of a pronoun, because this thread is specifically about pronouns, not rewriting sentences to avoid pronouns.
"I think he or she is saying that, when someone doesn't know someone else's gender, then there is no good pronoun for him or her to use."
You may very well come up with a great rewrite, and life will certainly go on for all of us in the absence of a gender neutral singular pronoun (heretofore abbreviated to GNSP). But I shall go to my grave believing communication could be easier and clearer had the inventor of the English language (wasn't it Al Gore?) bothered to include a GNSP. I refuse to acquiesce that the absence of GNSP is in any way superior to the lack thereof.
Eagerly awaiting your rewrite!
Last edited by Oldhag1; 02-15-2015 at 02:34 PM..
Reason: Removed icons
I sometimes use them but NOT for the sake of being PC. I couldn't care less about PC. I will use them sometimes if I am meaning both men and women. But sometimes will use he/she, him/her....
If one does not properly stretch before one's run, one could injure oneself.
Or, one could say
If runners do not properly stretch before their runs, they could injure themselves.
Or
Properly stretching before running helps prevent injuries.
If it bothers you to use he or his as gender neutral, just rewrite the sentence to eliminate the problem.
I consider it a quirk of the English language, and, though I am female, it does not bother me. Using their to refer to one person does bother me. That is ambiguous. Did you misspeak? Are we talking about one person or more than one?
Too easy. I was the poster who suggested one/oneself long ago.
It can also be worded... If one does not properly stretch before a run, one could injure oneself.
I prefer your last example.
I often find the word "that" is misused quite often.
It's not a simple thing at all.
I think we need to call it what it is. Have you ever tried to describe someone without using their most distinctive attributes? Imagine in a crowded room and not being able to use a gender description while trying to keep it PC in this PC sensitive world.
language is evolving all the time but we need to keep it descriptive as possible.
The whole point is that there are (or should be) few circumstances where gender is the most distinctive attribute. It's like automatically using race or religion in a situation where that is not merited - it ascribes unnecessary weight to that adjective. Get rid of gender specific pronouns!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've seen enough of your posts to know you likely don't mean that as snooty as it sounds! I highly doubt you have every sentence of every conversation grammatically planned out ahead of time to avoid ever getting stuck in a "he or she" conundrum.
You would be wrong. I so detest the use of their to refer to a single subject that I consciously avoid it. It is my greatest grammatical error pet peeve. It's easy to avoid when you make a habit of not using it. Here on CD I rarely will use s/he, but I would never do even that in more formal writing, and that does not work at all when spoken aloud.
Quote:
Yes, "he" can be considered gender neutral in some instances, such as "He who laughs last laughs longest." But if I were to repeatedly refer to you as "he," you would probably think that strange, if not downright annoying. (I'm assuming that suzy_q is a female. Maybe you're a dude who likes those chocolatey Hostess treat things).
I am female, as anyone who has read many of my posts in other threads would know. If someone called me he I would not be upset, though I might correct the misconception. In fact, would someone who chose a gender neutral user name perhaps not expect for the gender neutral form of "he" to be used? What is particularly irksome is to see is the use of their to refer to a subject that is either obviously male or obviously female. If the subject is an NFL football player, use he and his. If the subject is a member of the US Women's Olympic gymnastics team, use she and her.
Quote:
Ok, let's use the example I used in my first reply in this thread, where the pronoun refers to the OP. And please do not use "OP" instead of a pronoun, because this thread is specifically about pronouns, not rewriting sentences to avoid pronouns.
"I think he or she is saying that, when someone doesn't know someone else's gender, then there is no good pronoun for him or her to use."
You may very well come up with a great rewrite, and life will certainly go on for all of us in the absence of a gender neutral singular pronoun (heretofore abbreviated to GNSP). But I shall go to my grave believing communication could be easier and clearer had the inventor of the English language (wasn't it Al Gore?) bothered to include a GNSP. I refuse to acquiesce that the absence of GNSP is in any way superior to the lack thereof.
Eagerly awaiting your rewrite!
There is a perfectly good pronoun to use; you just do not like it.
He can refer to a person who is either male or female, when you do not know what gender to specify. It is inclusive, not exclusive, and is just as likely to refer to a female as a male.
I think he is saying that, when someone doesn't know someone else's gender, there is no good pronoun for him to use.
Then there is the obvious solution: if it is important to know the gender of the OP, ask!
Last edited by Oldhag1; 02-15-2015 at 02:37 PM..
Reason: Edited quote
Wow, am I the only one who uses "they", as a non-specific pronoun. If I don't know someone's gender, they're generally referred to as, "they". Maybe that's just me. Come on, the English language is complicated enough. Do we really need more rules and compartments?
German uses gender not only for pronouns but for nouns. Der Wein, das Wasser, die Milch are the wine, the water and the milk, respectively. Der being masculine, das being neuter and die being feminine. Everything is either masculine, neuter or feminine. Der Hund, die Katze, das Haustier (house pet).
So I wouldn't worry about him, her and it, his, hers, its, etc.
Wow, am I the only one who uses "they", as a non-specific pronoun. If I don't know someone's gender, they're generally referred to as, "they".
No your not the only one. The singular they had emerged by the 14th century and is common in everyday spoken English, but its use has been the target of criticism since the late 19th century. Its use in formal English has increased with the trend toward gender-inclusive language.
Singular they is the use in English of the pronoun they or its inflected or derivative forms, them, their, theirs, and themselves (or themself), as a gender-neutral singular pronoun. It typically occurs with an antecedent of indeterminate gender, as in sentences such as:
"Somebody left their umbrella in the office. Would they please collect it?"
"The patient should be told at the outset how much they will be required to pay."
"But a journalist should not be forced to reveal their sources."
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