Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
What a ridiculous premise. Why French and not Italian, German, Swedish, Polish, Romanian, Hungarian, Portuguese, Vietnamese, or any other language which is spoken in one or two nations alone? Why single out the French-speaking people?
The world doesn't revolve around the United States and how its schools counsel its students.
I think its because because France was, until somewhat recently (going back to colonial times), a more dominant nation/culture/society than Italy, Germany, Sweden, Poland, Romanian, etc. But French/France is arguably on the decline today. Or at least this thread tries to ascertain whether it is. But I encourage others to start threads on other languages as relevant. This one, however, is about French
You can also add Haiti and some African countries to that list. Though French is the "language of instruction" in many of these countries, it is often so in name only and a very small percentage of the population actually has a full understanding of the language. Apart from what I explained earlier on the subject, take a look at Haiti, where less than 10% of the population is fluent in French, with some estimates as low as 5% being fluent, despite the language being "taught" in schools. Sources: Haiti is teaching kids in the wrong languageShould Creole replace French in Haiti's schools? - BBC News. French is a language of the elites, at least in Haiti. Granted, the situation is Africa is a little different as French is more widely spoken in francophone countries as compared to Haiti, but even then its largely as a second language as children learn their tribal languages first and are generally more fluent in those languages over French. These points are important to understanding the global importance of French and to the topic at hand.
There is some truth to what you are saying about demographics but on the other hand none of these countries is moving away from the use of French in officialdom.
There is some truth to what you are saying about demographics but on the other hand none of these countries is moving away from the use of French in officialdom.
Very true. Just providing some context to explain how things are on the ground.
I once attended a Catholic school that was run by a religious order with roots in France. As a result, the only foreign language option my first year there was French. The second year was my first year of high school, where Spanish was also a language option. So I had to decide between continuing with French or switching to Spanish.
This was not long after a number of African countries gained independence from their French former colonial masters, and with that in mind, I reasoned that Africa was going to ascend on the world stage and therefore sticking with French wouldn't be a bad idea.
Apparently I miscalculated the future relevance of French (relative to Spanish) to Americans.
It is what you do with it. I'd choose French over Spanish. I am not very interested in Spanish speaking countries, and as I don't interact with illegal aliens Spanish and French are of equal use to me in my day to day life in the US.
I think its because because France was, until somewhat recently (going back to colonial times), a more dominant nation/culture/society than Italy, Germany, Sweden, Poland, Romanian, etc. But French/France is arguably on the decline today. Or at least this thread tries to ascertain whether it is. But I encourage others to start threads on other languages as relevant. This one, however, is about French
Indeed. French faces a precipitous retreat on the world stage that those others do not due to the vast amount of prestige France itself has lost in the last 100 years. Even in Europe French is declining while German is growing, and it is hard to imagine the French leaving the EU or elbowing Germany out of the driver seat without overtaking Germany's economy which itself seems unlikely to happen. In the end while it is polite to speak about the decline of French people are T the same time tacitly acknowledging the decline of France.
I think an important point to remember about French is that although it is outnumbered by at least several other languages going by numbers of native speakers, in terms of its importance in official capacities it is still probably the second most important world language (after English). Hence the stats often cited like "used in 29 countries on five continents" (I'm not sure about the exact number of countries but IIRC that's how many). That's unlike Spanish where most of the countries where it's an official language the majority of its citizens speak it, but with less international official recognition - or Mandarin, which boasts the greatest number of native speakers but are found mostly in one country that is enjoying an economic sweet-spot in the present times.
You can also add Haiti and some African countries to that list. Though French is the "language of instruction" in many of these countries, it is often so in name only and a very small percentage of the population actually has a full understanding of the language. Apart from what I explained earlier on the subject, take a look at Haiti, where less than 10% of the population is fluent in French, with some estimates as low as 5% being fluent, despite the language being "taught" in schools. Sources: Haiti is teaching kids in the wrong languageShould Creole replace French in Haiti's schools? - BBC News. French is a language of the elites, at least in Haiti. Granted, the situation is Africa is a little different as French is more widely spoken in francophone countries as compared to Haiti, but even then its largely as a second language as children learn their tribal languages first and are generally more fluent in those languages over French. These points are important to understanding the global importance of French and to the topic at hand.
Firstly, that "less than 10%" figure is untrue. I'm of Haitian descent. I've been to Haiti literally dozens of times, and have lived there at one point. Most Haitians do not speak French, this is true, however the majority can understand it (even if they may be reluctant to speak it due to Haitians being notoriously picky and critical of poorly spoken French) and most Haitians who finish school in Haiti speak French. Past primary school, French is the main language of instruction in Haiti and nearly all literature produced there is produced in French, not Creole. Creole, while a language in its own right, is still largely a vernacular language in Haiti and even more so in the rest of the Creole-speaking Caribbean.
Furthermore the ONLY place you ever hear talk of replacing French with Creole in Haiti is in English-language media, which is typically informed by Haitian-Americans who generally cannot speak French, and often cannot speak Creole well either.
As for Francophone Africa, yes this is true to a large extent that French is typically a second-language, but it is nonetheless widely spoken in most of Francophone Africa. Again, anyone who is educated (a demographic which is growing evermore rapidly as these countries develop) can speak at least conversational French, and in many of these countries French serves as a lingua franca among people of diverse ethnic and religious backgrounds.
If anything, the fact that the majority of Francophones in the world are second-language speakers underlines its importance. Most Anglophones are also second-language speakers and yet nobody points to that as proof that English is anything less than an international language. French's decline isn't an absolute decline - it enjoys more speakers and a greater presence than at any other point in history - but rather it's a relative decline. It's no longer the most important language to know, but instead is one of a handful of globally relevant languages (alongside Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Arabic & Russian).
Firstly, that "less than 10%" figure is untrue. I'm of Haitian descent. I've been to Haiti literally dozens of times, and have lived there at one point. Most Haitians do not speak French, this is true, however the majority can understand it (even if they may be reluctant to speak it due to Haitians being notoriously picky and critical of poorly spoken French) and most Haitians who finish school in Haiti speak French. Past primary school, French is the main language of instruction in Haiti and nearly all literature produced there is produced in French, not Creole. Creole, while a language in its own right, is still largely a vernacular language in Haiti and even more so in the rest of the Creole-speaking Caribbean.
Furthermore the ONLY place you ever hear talk of replacing French with Creole in Haiti is in English-language media, which is typically informed by Haitian-Americans who generally cannot speak French, and often cannot speak Creole well either.
As for Francophone Africa, yes this is true to a large extent that French is typically a second-language, but it is nonetheless widely spoken in most of Francophone Africa. Again, anyone who is educated (a demographic which is growing evermore rapidly as these countries develop) can speak at least conversational French, and in many of these countries French serves as a lingua franca among people of diverse ethnic and religious backgrounds.
If anything, the fact that the majority of Francophones in the world are second-language speakers underlines its importance. Most Anglophones are also second-language speakers and yet nobody points to that as proof that English is anything less than an international language. French's decline isn't an absolute decline - it enjoys more speakers and a greater presence than at any other point in history - but rather it's a relative decline. It's no longer the most important language to know, but instead is one of a handful of globally relevant languages (alongside Spanish, Portuguese, Mandarin, Arabic & Russian).
Oh, what I wrote is supported by some people I know who live in Haiti today (I went to school with several individuals whose primary residence was and remains in Haiti); my knowledge on this matter certainly isn't limited to these articles, which is also based on first-hand accounts of people living in Haiti. Still, your account is helpful to the discussion as well as it shows that there are differences in opinion on this matter.
And we can speak of French being the language of literature, etc., but that's not all too helpful to addressing the language's place in Haitian culture as most Haitians aren't even literate. Source: Statistics | At a glance: Haiti | UNICEF And, I'd imagine that a not-so-significant percentage of those who are literate do not have a firm grasp on French.
I also hear similar things about Francophone Africa from those who are from those countries. It doesn't shock me given what I know about certain Anglophone African countries like Ghana, where most of the population certainly doesn't have a firm grasp/are not conversational in English; in Ghana, Twi-Fante is the de facto lingua franca, not English.
And the fact that many people in Francophone countries learn French as a second language dues show its importance to an extent. Still, I bring up the points I do to bring context, to show that the importance of French in these societies (its not the language of conversation for most people in these countries generally speaking) is not what some people assume. To be clear, it is precisely because French is learned as a second language by many, albeit not widely spoken by many of those individuals, that I don't say that French is in even worse shape than I do on a global scale.
As to your point about Anglophones generally, please feel free to make a thread asking the same question. I think its a tougher sell to make, though, given the global importance of English to trade, politics, etc. But that's my opinion!
Last edited by prospectheightsresident; 05-17-2015 at 01:26 PM..
As education levels increase in francophone African countries, one can also expect the number of French speakers to increase as well, as this is the language they teach in. In almost all francophone African countries, the percentage of the population that can speak French is increasing. Sometimes rapidly.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
