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I understand that. He was messaging her back and then she turn around and he touched a bunch of other places while she was asleep. The way the story was told it doesn't sound like she felt asleep for 10 seconds. Reread it.
By 1:30 a.m., they were back at her place, sprawled on the couch and watching DVDs. He started rubbing her back. Thus began the "absolute biggest mistake" of Tim's life.
According to Tim, his hands moved down to the seat of her jeans. Sensing no objection after some tentative rubbing, he then reached inside them. At one point, she shifted, perhaps toward him. He rubbed her breasts next, over the shirt, then under the shirt, then under the bra, receiving no objection at each stage. She faced the TV, so, he says, he couldn't see her eyes for most of this. When he could, they were closed, but this didn't worry him; he closed his for a while too. This all went on for an hour or so.
It doesn't matter. Normal, decent men with integrity check for a woman's reaction when they are having a sexual encounter for the first time with her. "Clueless" Tim touched way too many places without realizing "she was not conscious" by his own admission. My guess is that Tim knew well what he was doing, and he thought he would get this far only if the girl was passed out. Some men are that pathetic, just like 10-15% pay for prostitutes, even when it's well known that many are exploited or sell their body to buy drugs.
The reality is that there are many a.holes out there. Probably 2 out of 10 men would rape a woman if they knew they won't get caught. Women need to be aware of that and not put themselves in dangerous situations like these girl by drinking, sending mixed signals and inviting men to her home because one day they might run out of luck. Well I think she got lucky, she could have been more drunk or next time he could have drugged her.
And yet, a university tribunal or whatever they called it gave him a slap on the wrist and told him to stay away from her and that's with a very different legal barrier.
I think that tells us most of the story.
Frankly, I think her inabilty to say "no" because she "froze" could be potentially something else coupled with revisionist catholic guilt and then she tried to get him kicked out of college but the university was "um no."
Again, the University with a lopsided "legal process" allowed him to stay around campus. What does that tell you?
P.S. Please never strawman mean again with that 10 seconds BS. You went from one hour to ten seconds when I pointed out that it sure wasn't one hour. That's frankly dishonesty and makes me not want to continue a civil convesation with you seem to be trying to repeatedly warp reality.
A misunderstanding? It says she'd fallen asleep watching the DVD, and woke up to this guy's hands all over where they shouldn't be, and she froze in panic. It usually takes two to create a misunderstanding, and she wasn't even awake part of the time. So she couldn't have contributed to a misunderstanding.
Nailed it!! It stands to reason that if a man is already on top of you what can you do, particularly if he is large and strong and you are not. That would be one of the most absolutely terrifying things I can envision. It's why I as a female am trained with firearms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth
I think the story is a good illustration of why these "affirmative consent" laws are a good thing. They exist not only to help protect women, but to protect men against later accusations following what they perceived to be ambiguous situations (which some interpret in their favor). Men should not only not assume consent in the absence of a "no", they shouldn't assume anything when their date has imbibed as much alcohol as his had. And women should be cautious about their alcohol intake.
I disagree on a couple of counts which I feel are obvious but seem to be contributing to a lot of social misunderstandings today:
1. Affirmative consent begins to traverse on free speech rights as far as I'm concerned. Social consent should be enough: "you are a decent person and so am I"...rape is no frigging accident. I also don't think sociopaths respect affirmative consent. Situations like these are purely predator-prey interactions and 3W feminists need to start growing up and see what the rest of society already does: rapists are NOT nice guys- they are guys who act like nice guys. Normal men DO NOT RAPE. (The feminists who think they do...really need to take their social radar in for an exchange got it's broken.)
The reception of rape victims is one issue; the redefinition of who rapists are is pure insanity.
2. There are no "ambiguous situations". There is rape and there is not-rape. There is protest and inability to consent which is by default, rape. PERIOD. Anything else is inane tumblr feminist mumbo jumbo. I find it offensive as a female that you think rape could ever be "ambiguous".
3. This "imbibing of alcohol" obsession...I'm obviously too old but WTH EVER HAPPENED TO HAVING FUN???? Seriously. You 3Wavers act like alcohol= rape, not alcohol = fun. My god. You guys are half my age yet you act like nervous retirees. You need to get the hell off the internet, get a social life, experience life, and maybe as a result learn some goddamn YOU KNOW, social skills- the very skills that actually help you navigate and win in the complex social world around you which includes....yes...rapists.
4. Again....ALCOHOL does not cause rape. RAPISTS cause rape.
5. Women (and everyone) should always be cautious of their alcohol intake because um you know....driving, walking, talking, not dropping money from your wallet at coat check, ordering at the diner and getting to a cab is all hard when you're plastered harder than after a motorcycle accident victim Not just because rape. (see #4)
And yet, a university tribunal or whatever they called it gave him a slap on the wrist and told him to stay away from her and that's with a very different legal barrier.
I think that tells us most of the story.
Frankly, I think her inabilty to say "no" because she "froze" could be potentially something else coupled with revisionist catholic guilt and then she tried to get him kicked out of college but the university was "um no."
Again, the University with a lopsided "legal process" allowed him to stay around campus. What does that tell you?
P.S. Please never strawman mean again with that 10 seconds BS. You went from one hour to ten seconds when I pointed out that it sure wasn't one hour. That's frankly dishonesty and makes me not want to continue a civil convesation with you seem to be trying to repeatedly warp reality.
I don't know why you are getting all upset and aggressive about some a.hole who obviously can only get laid with women who are passed out. It seems to me you are biased against rape accusations and you are not even paying attention to what Tim said, which I assume are the facts.
I didn't make up the hour. It's on the article, it's the time frame Tim gave and he said "This all went on for an hour or so" right after he described how he assaulted her. The "hour or so" comment did not come after he said he was massaging her back. His words, not mine. He had time to touch several parts of her body and also saw that her eyes were closed SEVERAL TIMES. "I just closed mine too" How romantic...
Any normal person with no intellectual disability would have realized pretty quickly that someone is asleep when they are having sex. Sex is a very interactive activity and when normal men(not rapists) are having sex for the first time with a woman, they always check for her reaction and reciprocation because they know the woman might not be ready to move on to the next phase.
I don't know why she "froze" and for how long but it doesn't say she reciprocated. All we know is that Tim was "having fun" with some inert object that would not talk to him, touch him or even open her eyes. Maybe she felt fear or guilt when she woke up. Whatever the case was, that doesn't change the facts. He still sexually assaulted her in her sleep.
I understand that. He was messaging her back and then she turn around and he touched a bunch of other places while she was asleep. The way the story was told it doesn't sound like she felt asleep for 10 seconds. Reread it.
By 1:30 a.m., they were back at her place, sprawled on the couch and watching DVDs. He started rubbing her back. Thus began the "absolute biggest mistake" of Tim's life.
According to Tim, his hands moved down to the seat of her jeans. Sensing no objection after some tentative rubbing, he then reached inside them. At one point, she shifted, perhaps toward him. He rubbed her breasts next, over the shirt, then under the shirt, then under the bra, receiving no objection at each stage. She faced the TV, so, he says, he couldn't see her eyes for most of this. When he could, they were closed, but this didn't worry him; he closed his for a while too. This all went on for an hour or so.
It doesn't matter. Normal, decent men with integrity check for a woman's reaction when they are having a sexual encounter for the first time with her. "Clueless" Tim touched way too many places without realizing "she was not conscious" by his own admission. My guess is that Tim knew well what he was doing, and he thought he would get this far only if the girl was passed out. Some men are that pathetic, just like 10-15% pay for prostitutes, even when it's well known that many are exploited or sell their body to buy drugs.
The reality is that there are many a.holes out there. Probably 2 out of 10 men would rape a woman if they knew they won't get caught. Women need to be aware of that and not put themselves in dangerous situations like these girl by drinking, sending mixed signals and inviting men to her home because one day they might run out of luck. Well I think she got lucky, she could have been more drunk or next time he could have drugged her.
I'm a woman who has been taken advantage of before and this story doesn't make my internal alarms go off. Considering they were both young and drunk and there was quite a bit of flirting (ass slapping, going to a sex shop) beforehand, I can't agree that Tim is an *******.
As a never-been-raped female, I've been wondering... and I am going to admit this...if I am crazy for genuinely wondering why a woman wouldn't attempt to stop a rape that a man was committing on her? I mean FFS is there something I am missing here? Is it too much to ask that victims try a bit harder in order to garner evidence (isn't blood or skin under fingernails or defensive wounds generally enough to put him away) to help put these rapists away? I mean considering they are out there waiting to prey on others (like myself)?
Is there something I am missing here? I'm having trouble understanding the new definition of rape. I really am.
"froze in fear"
I hope people would take understanding of freezing in fear very seriously. It is real. You cannot not talk, you cannot move.
"Freezing behavior or the Freeze Response is a reaction to specific stimuli, most commonly observed in prey animals. When a prey animal has been caught and completely overcome by the predator, it may still be possible for the prey to escape by feigning death so that the predator stops the attack."
Now when we are talking about sex that both should want so it would not be a rape.. Who would want to have sex with non-participating, non-responding, "unconscious" body? Coma-sex -fetish?
If she is not participating, would be better to try another day or another girl...
The law is not concerned with misunderstandings....well, maybe civil law. But criminal law, ignorance is no excuse.
Perhaps misunderstandings shouldn't be criminal in the first place.
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