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A citation, perhaps a demonstration of your credentials in criminal justice and juvenile psychology, or are you just making up your arguments as you go along?
In many states the decision to try a child as an adult is at the discretion of the prosecutor and the prosecutor alone.
In those states where a judge is given the flexibility to remand a child over to the adult system, the prosecutors recommendation is a powerful sway over a judged decision.
In other states, the crime dictates in which system a child will be tried.
In no state does a jury have a say in which system a child will be tried.
The second part you quoted was from a personal experience, with an adult. NOT a juvenile, and the guy was a total sociopath. Zero conscience, .I was commenting on his trial, not an arraignment. Thought I made that clear. As to your lofty insults,just look at these cases where kids are tried as adults. They killed a younger kid, because they "wanted to know what it felt like" and such. The case material is out there, how is that making things up? Nice cberry pick, trying to play the elite intellectual.
I stand by I stand by tbe post. All of it. Right down to my doubts, that trial as an adult, and subsequent punishment as same, is a wise course for sociopathic kid. They're already monsters. Tossing them in with other monsters creates ones that are worse. If they ever see release, oh my! But rehashing what I've already written , is a waste of time.
So you believe people, including kids, who commit murder should be released if someone says they are good to go? How about those 2 young girls who killed their friend to please a fictional character?
Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude, the girl they tried to kill survived and at least 1 of the 2 attackers seems to have serious mental problems......
The second part you quoted was from a personal experience, with an adult. NOT a juvenile, and the guy was a total sociopath. Zero conscience, .I was commenting on his trial, not an arraignment. Thought I made that clear.
You didn't. This is where you and I got off the track, first paragraph third sentence:
"These kids that get tried as adults, often are complete sociopaths. No conscience, no remorse for their actions."
That is a definitive statement that requires, at least in my book, substantiation. The reason that I say that is because if criminal justice system actually based prosecution on actual clinical examinations by truly independent mental health experts instead of prosecutors making up the rules based upon personal opinion or headlines I might not be as concerned, but that isn't the case.
As to your lofty insults,
I may have been too condescending which might be viewed as insulting, it certainly wasn't meant as a insult. If that were the case you would certainly know the difference as would the moderators I suspect.
Quote:
just look at these cases where kids are tried as adults. They killed a younger kid, because they "wanted to know what it felt like" and such.
Look at what cases, the cases that make grisly headlines or the day to day cases that pass through the criminal justice system? Over a five year period from 10,000 juveniles were tried as adults in Florida alone. Across the country 2,600 inmates are serving sentence so life without possibility of parole for crimes committed as juveniles. You cannot tell me that in a system that barely can afford to give the average accused defendant a competent attorney has taken the time and resources to establish the psychopathic mental state of that many juveniles.
So when we discuss the issue, and someone makes the definitive a definitive statement about and issue this serious, demanding some qualification or credible substantiation shouldn't be viewed as an insult when you proffer neither.
My personal views roughly speaking because there are is so too many variations in crimes committed and possible sentencing that juvenile offenders should be remanded to custody in a safe environment during which time that they should be put through a rigorous educational, life skill and psychological program with their release, depending upon the crime, dependent upon their achievement in those programs. In the case of the most serious crimes such as the wanton murders that you've describe that they should remain incarcerated until such a time that they are deemed to be no longer a danger to society. If that means life then so be it, but at least they would be offered some possibility of being released.
Children that murder are never going to become 'normal' children after having done that. At least if tried and sentenced as adults there is a chance they will be kept from doing more harm during the years of their lives that they are most likely to act out. And yes, there is a big difference between a brutal murder and other murders. When the victim suffers in any way, that is brutal and inexcusable by age or any other factor.
I don't think that's necessarily true though.
I just read an article today about the youngest person to ever be tried as an adult for murder will be released from prison today. He and his sister (who was 13 at the time; he was 12) intended to murder their father (they didn't, but did kill his girlfriend) because he was sexually and physically abusive. So abusive in fact, that the mother left him (was unable to take the kids sadly). In fact, the boy's sister was born prematurely because his father had hit his mother so hard that it tore her uterus.
Now, I would never say another human being deserves to die. It's not my philosophy that man can decide when another man must die. But I cannot in good conscious say that these two people (who are not adults, the boy is not 29) are bad people. They were desperate.
Now, it is a sad possibility that they will be back in jail soon. Probably not for another murder, but when you've been in our abysmally poor prison system since you were 12, being released into the world will be easy. He was sentences in 1999; the world has changed a lot since then. And without experience in being an adult, the outlook is gloomy for him.
Seeing as most courts are reluctant to give life sentences to children, an important question we must ask is what happens whey they are to be released? If they've had good behavior in prison, some will inevitably be paroled. Is it not the prison system's responsibility (based on the statistics, the prison system absolutely hates the concept of responsibility) to prepare these kids for real life? To get them to be somewhat self sufficient? And really, would it not benefit ALL prisoners, from the most minor to sever offenses, to learn self sufficiency?
My point is, motivation and upbringing play a part i these things. I refuse to say that this boy (Jones; should have been using his name the whole time for clarity, but I'm not rewriting this so oh well) is a bad person for what he did. According to his friend who he had went to immediately after killing his father's girlfriend, he was horrified and shaken by what he had done. But imagine for a moment being a 12 year old who is terrified of his father because he does not know with what he'll be hitting him with that night.
Look at the gruesome "slender man" attempted murder. The kid who stabbed and killed a girl because she didnt accept her prom invitation (girl already had a bf)
The (minor) boys from an ohio high school who gang raped a girl just got 2 years of community service! Do they have any idea how that rape will affect the girl for the rest of her life? Or that 15 year old who sexually assaulted and killed an 8 year old girl? These are GRUESOME crimes, not petty theft crimes
Many of this "children" are at the age where they are most likely to know that rape and murder is bad. They arent clueless four years old. Maybe, the "adult age" should be brought down from 18 to 14.
It seems to be a trend to be just blaming "mental illness". Such gruesome crimes by "minors" are not done in other countries. I think "children" in the US do not have a sense of responsibility, accountability, cause and effect because theyre always to be "spared"... so they lost sense that their actions always have consequences.
If is ready to kill and make "adult crimes" is ready to sentenced as adult. Smaller crimes than violence crimes as children. When people or animals are not violated.
I don't think this is as easy an issue as people on each side of the issue imply. Having worked with junior high and high school kids all of my adult working life, I know it's impossible to make any valid generalizations about the emotional and intellectual maturity levels of kids in what is a transitional age. I've seen some 7th graders who are so mature at age 12 that it's uncanny. And I've seen 18 years old who are hardly as mature as an average pre-teen.
Then there is whatever the crime is. Crimes can be no less heinous just because they are committed by a teen as opposed to an adult. So there's the issue of looking at both the victim and the perpetrator.
A problem that young people have, to varying degrees, is a sense of invincibility. Even more so than with adults, there is a belief that nothing bad will happen to me if _____________.
As I was thinking about this thread it occurred to me that perhaps it ought to work like it does when we consider insanity defenses. But then that idea fell apart as I thought about the term "equal justice".
There are things in the world that are "unsolvable". This issue may be one of them.
Look at the gruesome "slender man" attempted murder. The kid who stabbed and killed a girl because she didnt accept her prom invitation (girl already had a bf)
The (minor) boys from an ohio high school who gang raped a girl just got 2 years of community service! Do they have any idea how that rape will affect the girl for the rest of her life? Or that 15 year old who sexually assaulted and killed an 8 year old girl? These are GRUESOME crimes, not petty theft crimes
Many of this "children" are at the age where they are most likely to know that rape and murder is bad. They arent clueless four years old. Maybe, the "adult age" should be brought down from 18 to 14.
It seems to be a trend to be just blaming "mental illness". Such gruesome crimes by "minors" are not done in other countries. I think "children" in the US do not have a sense of responsibility, accountability, cause and effect because theyre always to be "spared"... so they lost sense that their actions always have consequences.
Stop giving kids free pass.
The slender man attempted murder involved 12 year old girls. I don't believe in locking up 12 year old's for the rest of their life. This crime stretches the limits, but I believe it should be handled within the confines of the juvenile justice system. Because the crime is attempted murder, rather than murder, the girls couldn't be held in custody in the adult system forever anyway. The juvenile justice system is better equipped to treat these girls, so that they can eventually be released into society.
The question of what age a person should be required to face adult responsibility for committing a crime is not a simple one. Every state has different laws. Where I live, the law states that no one under fourteen can be tried as an adult period. Between 14 and 16, a judge may certify a juvenile to stand trial--if the prosecution requests it-- as an adult depending on a complicated set of factors. This responsibility is not taken lightly and certification is often denied. From age 16 up, there is a presumption that a juvenile who commits certain crimes should be treated as an adult and sixteen year old's are routinely tried in adult courts for murder, rape, and robbery.
The laws I criticize are the ones that allow charging twelve and thirteen year old's as adults. I agree twelve and thirteen year old kids can commit some pretty vicious crimes. The problem, though, is that no 12 or 13 year old reasons like an adult does. Therefore, the idea of imposing the same sentence on them as an adult is simply wrong. I don't buy the notion that some twelve or thirteen year old's cannot be treated and/or reformed. I do think that perhaps provisions should be built into juvenile law that allow incarceration of some offenders beyond age 18. Perhaps, this should be expanded to 25 for the most serious offenders.
In end, we don't allow young people to vote. We don't allow them to drink (at least legally). We don't allow them to purchase cigarettes. They can't make contracts. They can't even work until they are least fourteen. They cannot work a real job until they are sixteen. It seems a bit unfair and incongruous to force them to accept the same responsibility that an adult would for committing a crime.
Some people do such vicious things, they test the limits of a civilized society. Nevertheless, society cannot and should not go beyond reasonable bounds in dealing with them. That is the test that decent people face everyday. It doesn't surprise me that some want to go beyond those bounds in dealing with such people. The rest of us though cannot allow this group to make laws based on pure emotion and the way that they feel. We must continue to stand for what is right.
Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude, the girl they tried to kill survived and at least 1 of the 2 attackers seems to have serious mental problems......
the girl they tried to kill survived by HER OWN WILL. Not by anything they did. IMO, if you attempt to kill someone but they survive there should be absolutely no less punishment.
people with mental problems belong in a mental hospital.
13 is plenty old enough to know that murder is wrong.
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