80% of guys in prison hurt/stole nobody/nothing (interview, wages, illegal)
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65% are there for dope. Another 10% did what they did to GET dope or about dope debts, "turf', etc, cause dope costs 100x what it would cost if it's legal. Portugal has NO dope laws, hasn't had any for a decade and they are ok. We were ok before the 1914 dope laws, too. another 5% of prisoners are in prison for gambing, prostitution, guns, etc, no harm done to anyone. Stop locking them up and you'll have 4x as much room for the people who DO steal or harm others.
Dude, sounds like you should move to Portugal then....
I think rather, there should be prisons for horrible crimes (murder, rape, etc) and prisons for milder or "softer" crimes (fraud, theft, speeding, people not paying rent/bills, etc). That's what I hate about prisons, the fact that a fraud_ster (why is that word bleeped here?) would be in the same building of a cold-blooded murderer and a rapist.
The main reason why we have so much violent crime is not because we lock people in prison, but because we let them out. Prison is crime university, where criminals go to become hardened. Sending them there for a few years is how we express our stupidity as a society. That stupidity is so overwhelming that it needs an outlet for expression. We need to do the stupidest things we possibly can. Sending people to prison, then letting them out when they're hardened criminals, fills that bill perfectly.
Yeah. I never understood the logic of giving these guys access to weight lifting facilities in prison. I'd prefer instead that we castrate the more violent prisoners.
Here's a fact, the United States imprisons more people per capita then any other country, by far!
Just like everything in this country, it's about the money. Our judicial system is nothing but a money making scam.
It seems to be getting worst. People go to jail for the most ridiculous things anymore. I read a story that a wife threw a pot at her husband. Husband called the cops, wife went to jail. Seems you can't look at someone the wrong way anymore without getting arrested.
Yeah. I never understood the logic of giving these guys access to weight lifting facilities in prison. I'd prefer instead that we castrate the more violent prisoners.
Agreed. Personally, I'd like to see prisoners made as docile as possible. Don't give them weight rooms or treadmills; give them cumfy couches and lots of ice cream instead. Make sure the facilities are fully air conditioned (people tend to get touchier when they're overly hot). And don't let them watch anything except Pixar movies and C-SPAN.
The only downside I see to my plan is that, once released, most former inmates will quickly re-offend so that they can get back in . . . because life there would be so much better than what they had on the outside. But on the bright side, they'll be so out-of-shape and mellowed out that the crimes they do commit probably won't be ones of violence.
I got a son who is a prison guard in a supermax. Trust me, for he most part, they all belong. The stories are frightening. Their crimes even more so. As it relates to lower security level prisons, you might have some valid points but, for the federal pens, state higher level pens, they are a very necessary and vital component of our judicial system and they get it right way, way, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than they ever get it wrong. The discovery channel can make anyone cry over a few mistakes BUT,
Make no mistake, most belong there for a very, very, veeeeeeery long time.
My son says you have to see them to believe it. From shoving paper towel rolls up their rears for sexual release to stabbing other inmates with sharpened plastics, fence hardware, broom hardware, and needles made from god knows dipped in fecal matter (he says they are incredibly clever at weapons making) to jabbing another inmates eye out with two stiff fingers...for fun, ......you are all wrong. You have to watch them like a hawk.
As he puts it, "it's adult daycare except these adults can and might possibly kill you. No Shiite".
if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's USUALLY a.....duck. Don't feel sorry for them. The murderers are usually in there because they lost it at a family picnic or some other such nonsense (wife caught with another man, husband caught with another man, etc).....until one digs deeper. Then, you find out the signs of societal rage became apparent much earlier. They were just never identified when they were younger. Until one guy killed four relatives.....with his bare hands.......cuts everyone's hair now as a prison barber, is a nice guy but always so quiet no one is quite sure that he won't explode again.
At 2:30 in the morning he saw one just staring. Watched him all night making the rounds. He never made a sound. He sat for 8 hours watching the guards. Never moved. Just stared. He was as comfortable as a man in a lazy boy watching TV. Except, no TV, radio, magazine, nothing.
They are real. They do exist. They are deadly, They know it, and in quite a few cases are comfortable with the decisions they made in life. They simply do not care and they care even less, if possible, that anyone knows it. Some are so cold and lifeless they spook you (guy staring all night). Others are so whacked they hit on anyone and anything with a pulse. They would literally have sex with a broom or mop handle for hours if you let them and then beat somewone with it if given half a chance minutes later.
Some are simply terrifying to watch. Scary, scary types you do NOT want to meet on a street. It's not a shock that there are always openings for guards.
Prison has its place. We need it. It keeps people like this away from all of us. You don't want the majority of these folks on the street again. Ever.
You're talking about a supermax prison. That's a totally different deal than the average prison - that's where the truly violent get sent. Your perspective is skewed.
The main reason why we have so much violent crime is not because we lock people in prison, but because we let them out. Prison is crime university, where criminals go to become hardened. Sending them there for a few years is how we express our stupidity as a society. That stupidity is so overwhelming that it needs an outlet for expression. We need to do the stupidest things we possibly can. Sending people to prison, then letting them out when they're hardened criminals, fills that bill perfectly.
First of all, relative to all other crimes in the US, we don't have much violent crime. We're certainly more violent than many of our allies, but our violent crime rate is totally absurd like our prison population is. Most prisoners are not in on violent crimes. Most are in for property or drug offenses.
But I actually agree with you about the crime university point. However, my solution would involve fixing the prison, not the sentencing laws. As it is, our sentencing laws are extremely authoritarian and way more harsh than are European and Canadian friends impose. We look more like Russia or China than Canada or Germany (and that's a really bad thing). Fix the prison system and we can bring recidivism and crime rates down. Of course, to bring crime rates down, we'll need bigger changes on the outside as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_k_k
It depends what the purpose of prison is. We tend to conflate them all and then debate from tangential perspectives. Valid purposes could be:
1) Punishment: to make offenders suffer for a bad behavior. You did wrong, you must pay.
2) Deterrence: to discourage others from doing it. We want them to think twice about emulating you.
3) Rehabilitation: correcting their conduct so they won't repeat bad behaviors. You can have a life someday.
4) Segregation: removing them from society so they can't do it again. Don't care about fixing you, don't care about punishing you, you just need to be kept apart.
We tend to differ on what the goal(s) should be, and I'd say that sensible people realize that different goals might need to apply to different offenders. What is clear is that in our prison system, on balance, it seems to be mostly punishment and segregation, with rehabilitation a lower priority. I think deterrence is a theoretical goal, but doesn't seem too effective. But it would help if we had the ability to decide on the goal of an individual's confinement, and focus efforts on it.
All of theses goals should be valued. If we ignore one, it creates problems. A lack of punishment will make people feel like prison isn't so bad, so it's not the end of the world if they go back. Denying rehabilitation will do nothing to address recidivism and reentry, both of which are extremely important. Segregation is also important, but should be applied selectively. A thief is a very different sort of danger than a serial killer; to treat them the same would be as idiotic as thinking our current system works.
Deterrence however is a fairy tale. Little evidence suggests that the usual deterrence argument has any validity. Look at capital punishment. Often times the argument for it is that it will deter people from killing people if they know the government can do it, but states with the death penalty have consistently had higher rates of violent crime. Now, if we look at is as individual deterrence, as in deterring a convict from ever committing a crime again, that's possible, but it's an aspect of rehabilitation and punishment and doesn't need to be it's own goal.
I got a son who is a prison guard in a supermax. Trust me, for he most part, they all belong. The stories are frightening. Their crimes even more so. As it relates to lower security level prisons, you might have some valid points but, for the federal pens, state higher level pens, they are a very necessary and vital component of our judicial system and they get it right way, way, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than they ever get it wrong. The discovery channel can make anyone cry over a few mistakes BUT,
Make no mistake, most belong there for a very, very, veeeeeeery long time.
My son says you have to see them to believe it. From shoving paper towel rolls up their rears for sexual release to stabbing other inmates with sharpened plastics, fence hardware, broom hardware, and needles made from god knows dipped in fecal matter (he says they are incredibly clever at weapons making) to jabbing another inmates eye out with two stiff fingers...for fun, ......you are all wrong. You have to watch them like a hawk.
As he puts it, "it's adult daycare except these adults can and might possibly kill you. No Shiite".
if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's USUALLY a.....duck. Don't feel sorry for them. The murderers are usually in there because they lost it at a family picnic or some other such nonsense (wife caught with another man, husband caught with another man, etc).....until one digs deeper. Then, you find out the signs of societal rage became apparent much earlier. They were just never identified when they were younger. Until one guy killed four relatives.....with his bare hands.......cuts everyone's hair now as a prison barber, is a nice guy but always so quiet no one is quite sure that he won't explode again.
At 2:30 in the morning he saw one just staring. Watched him all night making the rounds. He never made a sound. He sat for 8 hours watching the guards. Never moved. Just stared. He was as comfortable as a man in a lazy boy watching TV. Except, no TV, radio, magazine, nothing.
They are real. They do exist. They are deadly, They know it, and in quite a few cases are comfortable with the decisions they made in life. They simply do not care and they care even less, if possible, that anyone knows it. Some are so cold and lifeless they spook you (guy staring all night). Others are so whacked they hit on anyone and anything with a pulse. They would literally have sex with a broom or mop handle for hours if you let them and then beat somewone with it if given half a chance minutes later.
Some are simply terrifying to watch. Scary, scary types you do NOT want to meet on a street. It's not a shock that there are always openings for guards.
Prison has its place. We need it. It keeps people like this away from all of us. You don't want the majority of these folks on the street again. Ever.
I worked ten years in our Maximum Security state Pen and Caleb's son is fairly accurate in his statements. There are exceptions but if you work around inmates you had better remember: Trust no one! And that goes double for administration LOL.
Most prison systems have a web page or a published annual report where you can find real numbers and statistical information on inmates, offenses, etc. It would be good to go there and see who and how we lock people up. It's not always the same in every state. Some parole boards probably have similar statistics on who is getting out on parole. It's the ones who are not good enough to get paroled (and supervised) and are released at the statutory release date with little or no supervision that is scary. Statistics on probation (street-supervised offenders) are harder to find because the probation systems are operated in a variety of ways.
You might be amazed to see the huge number (maybe the largest group) going into prisons is the multiple DWI offenders. They might not stay long but they cost a bundle and take up space. If we could find an effective way to manage DWIs we would save a lot of tax dollars.
Prison systems have an internal classification system that generally separates inmates into different housing assignments based on behavior and history of violence. Super max is where the most dangerous inmates go and they really have nothing to lose by acting out and being animals.
Not all offenders need to be locked up but many do. There is a political aspect to incarceration....being tough on crime gets sheriffs, prosecutors and judges votes so there is an incentive to send people to prison. Don't get into trouble if there is an election coming up.
This according to a survey conducted with 1,000 prisoners in 12 different penal institutions in 5 states. The survey also found that "I got a bum rap" and "I was framed" were the two most common reasons for being incarcerated. Of the 20% of respondents who admitted to hurting someone, 98% of them said that it was actually their victims' fault, and the respondents were merely defending themselves.
The margin of error is estimated to be in the order of 97 percent.
Was this peer reviewed?
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