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You may KNOW it with an ectopic pregnancy, but certainly not a normal pregnancy.
Exactly, ectopic is completely different. Ectopic is not normal.
Most women do not experience symptoms until around 8 weeks, so if her periods aren't extremely regular and she's not trying, then she could easily not notice until 6-8 weeks. I didn't even think I was pregnant the first time as my cycles always varied by a few days. My husband kept teasing me about it and I took a test just to show him he was wrong (I had one from a scare the year before). Boy was I surprised!! Even though the test was expired, it still came up positive quickly (the higher your HCG levels, the faster and stronger a positive will appear). I was about 5-6 weeks along.
With my third I had zero symptoms. I never had morning sickness (which was intense the first time and mild the second) and I also had heavy implantation bleeding that mimicked a period. If I hadn't tested the day before that started, I would have never thought I was pregnant until my next cycle, putting me around 9-10 weeks.
There are dozens of scenarios that could lead a woman to not know for several weeks or sometimes even months into a pregnancy.
I would agree that a six week old fetus probably doesn't have self awareness, same as someone with Alzheimer's disease, or a person in the final grips of stage 4 cancer, but unless you advocate we euthanize both our terminally sick and elderly as well as pre-babies, then you are a hypocrite.
I 100% advocate for a person's right to die! If you have Alzheimer's, terminal cancer, terminal anything you should absolutely have the right to choose to end your life.
I've never understood why we call it humane when you euthanize your 14 yr old blind dog who has cancer. But it's murder and inhumane to do to people.
As for limits:
I don't want any limit. However, 6 weeks is insane and probably suggested by a man.
Chemical pregnancies happen ALL the time and most women who aren't actively tracking and trying to get pregnant think it was simply a late period. Chemical pregnancies can happen up to the 5th week. So no, 6 weeks is not sufficient for anything.
Quote:
A chemical pregnancy is actually a very early miscarriage, which takes place before anything can be seen on an ultrasound scan – usually around the fifth week that you are pregnant. It means that a sperm has fertilised your egg, but later on, the egg fails to survive.
Funny how no one who wants restrictions or banning of abortion have actually answered my question. How do you prove it was rape or incest?
Exceptions for rape/incest are a distraction from the one single question that determines whether an abortion is immoral or acceptable: When does human life begin?
Is it legal or acceptable to kill a 5-yr-old if the mother waits that long to admit she was secretly raped by her uncle and the child is not, in fact the offspring of her boyfriend/husband? It's the offspring of a rape and incest. If not, why not? What if it's younger... what if at the moment of birth the baby come out [GASP!] the wrong color?!?! That's when the mother admits she was raped and hid the crime out of shame. It's a breathing baby... is it ok to kill it? If not, why not? The answer is simple: the child/baby is a breathing human being with all the rights of a human being.
Going farther, arguments based on "pro-life" are moot. If I yank a nose hair, the cells around the root are alive until they dry up and die. Am I a murderer for killing human cells that are alive? My son is getting his tonsils taken out this month. A doctor will take a knife, slice away living cells, and toss them in the trash. These cells have the full DNA of a living breathing human. Will I go to jail for approving this procedure? I hope not, because I pulled a nose hair this morning, and the surgery on my son is going to happen to stop the continuous Strep infections.
Of course an embryo/fetus is alive, just as the cells in a hair root are. The question isn't whether it's alive, it's whether it constitutes the entirety of a human life.
If it's a human life, then killing it is murder. If it isn't, then removing it is no different than having your tonsils taken out. Rape and/or incest has no bearing on the argument.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeHa
Funny how no one who wants restrictions or banning of abortion have actually answered my question. How do you prove it was rape or incest?
Since you seem hung up on this,
Incest: She would have to get the related father to admit to act, and/or a DNA test, and/or file a criminal complaint.
Rape: The same method used to start a criminal investigation. The woman would file a complaint and undergo a rape exam after the incident.
But again, neither rape nor incest have any bearing on whether or not the embryo/fetus is a human life or not.
Last edited by An Einnseanair; 12-06-2015 at 04:53 PM..
Exceptions for rape/incest are a distraction from the one single question that determines whether an abortion is immoral or acceptable: When does human life begin?
Is it legal or acceptable to kill a 5-yr-old if the mother waits that long to admit she was secretly raped by her uncle and the child is not, in fact the offspring of her boyfriend/husband? It's the offspring of a rape and incest. If not, why not? What if it's younger... what if at the moment of birth the baby come out [GASP!] the wrong color?!?! That's when the mother admits she was raped and hid the crime out of shame. It's a breathing baby... is it ok to kill it? If not, why not? The answer is simple: the child/baby is a breathing human being with all the rights of a human being.
Going farther, arguments based on "pro-life" are moot. If I yank a nose hair, the cells around the root are alive until they dry up and die. Am I a murderer for killing human cells that are alive? My son is getting his tonsils taken out this month. A doctor will take a knife, slice away living cells, and toss them in the trash. These cells have the full DNA of a living breathing human. Will I go to jail for approving this procedure? I hope not, because I pulled a nose hair this morning, and the surgery on my son is scheduled.
Of course an embryo is alive, just as the cells in a hair root are. The question isn't whether it's alive, it's whether it constitutes the entirety of a human life.
If it's a human life, then killing it is murder. If it isn't, then killing it is no different than having your tonsils taken out. Rape and/or incest has no bearing on the argument.
Legally, medically and Biblically you are not a live human person until you have been expelled from the womb and taken a breath.
Legally, medically and Biblically you are not a live human person until you have been expelled from the womb and taken a breath.
For the record, I am a practicing Christian. That said, I agree that the quoted sentence is completely true. All the Bible thumpers should really read that book they wave around, especially the parts of the Old Testament where punishment for crimes against pregnant women are listed and compare them to punishment for crimes against other humans.
However, once past the point of natural viability, whether it is a fetus or a baby is simply a matter of geography. Inside the body it is a fetus; move it a few inches and *poof* it magically becomes a baby. Are you arguing that killing late-term inside the womb (a.k.a., "partial birth" abortion) is acceptable as long as you cut the neck before it takes the first breath? My second son was born 29-days early (water broke; induced labor), and legally became a "human" at that point. Other than an extra shot of oxygen and a few extra tests, the early birth meant nothing. Are you suggesting that if, by random luck, my wife's water hadn't broken that it would have been acceptable to kill the fetus for another four weeks?
You can't make the "choice" argument in this case, because the fetus/baby is fully capable of living outside the womb.
Since you seem hung up on this,
Incest: She would have to get the related father to admit to act, and/or a DNA test, and/or file a criminal complaint.
Rape: The same method used to start a criminal investigation. The woman would file a complaint and undergo a rape exam after the incident.
But again, neither rape nor incest have any bearing on whether or not the embryo/fetus is a human life or not.
Well it's a good thing my thread wasn't asking If a embryo/fetus is a human life
I'm hung up on my question because it's the topic of the thread
Given your solutions none of those can be completed quick enough for the victim to still have an abortion.
I don't think it's my or really anyone's business to tell others what to do with their bodies. A persons beliefs IMO are THEIRS alone. I have no right to step all over theirs just as they don't have any right to step on mine.
My personal belief is I want to keep my child. That's my belief. You don't want to that's your choice. But it's not my place to force my beliefs on you.
Well it's a good thing my thread wasn't asking If a embryo/fetus is a human life
I'm hung up on my question because it's the topic of the thread
Given your solutions none of those can be completed quick enough for the victim to still have an abortion.
Sorry, I apologize (sincerely)
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeHa
My questions are this:
[1]How would we verify that the pregnancy was the product of rape or incest and not just unprotected sex?
[2]How can one claim that abortion is murder but be okay with it under special circumstances?
To back up and directly answer the actual debate questions, with the assumption that this is an anti-abortion world where all abortions are illegal except for cases of rape or incest:
[1] Incest: She would have to get the related father to admit to act, and/or file a criminal complaint. This would happen at the time she applied for the exception to any "no abortions" laws. "Proof" would take the form of sworn statements. A realistic check against lying under oath would be a DNA test performed on the removed embryo/fetus after the procedure, with the understanding that anyone found to be lying would be prosecuted for murder. Rape: The same method used to start a criminal investigation. The woman would file a complaint and undergo a rape exam after the incident. Assuming that "morning after" procedures wouldn't be automatic in this world, the criminal complaint would serve as proof to obtain the abortion later if desired. If the woman doesn't report the rape immediately absolute proof is much harder. She would still have to swear and file an official complaint of rape without a rape kit, and the local police would have to be convinced to open a criminal case before an abortion is obtained.
On the surface, neither of these requirements would be overly restrictive in this hypothetical world. Either everything would be in place before the pregnancy was known about (rape kit), or could be obtained within a matter of days afterward. Abortions would be so rare in this world so "abortion clinics" would not exist. The abortion would be performed locally by a local doctor, and could happen even quicker than in current anti-abortion states where traveling hundreds of miles to the nearest clinic is normal.
[2]
This is what I answered earlier. There is no moral, ethical, or logical way to claim that abortion is murder, and that abortion is legal under special circumstances, without simultaneously saying that murder is legal under those same circumstances.
As the very definition of murder is, "the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another", saying that "murder is legal" is nonsensical.
Last edited by An Einnseanair; 12-06-2015 at 06:05 PM..
For the record, I am a practicing Christian. That said, I agree that the quoted sentence is completely true. All the Bible thumpers should really read that book they wave around, especially the parts of the Old Testament where punishment for crimes against pregnant women are listed and compare them to punishment for crimes against other humans.
However, once past the point of natural viability, whether it is a fetus or a baby is simply a matter of geography. Inside the body it is a fetus; move it a few inches and *poof* it magically becomes a baby. Are you arguing that killing late-term inside the womb (a.k.a., "partial birth" abortion) is acceptable as long as you cut the neck before it takes the first breath? My second son was born 29-days early (water broke; induced labor), and legally became a "human" at that point. Other than an extra shot of oxygen and a few extra tests, the early birth meant nothing. Are you suggesting that if, by random luck, my wife's water hadn't broken that it would have been acceptable to kill the fetus for another four weeks?
You can't make the "choice" argument in this case, because the fetus/baby is fully capable of living outside the womb.
In my first response, I gave abortion stats which state that basically all abortions are done by 21 weeks (like 99.9%). Almost every abortion done past 16 or so weeks are wanted pregnancies gone awry. Once a fetus is past viability, if it has to come out for any reason (premature labor, woman's life is at risk) doctors try their best to save it. I think that is required by law. I do not advocate, am not in favor of, do not support, do not agree with abortions past viability, BUT I am opposed to cut off dates because they are arbitrary and put women and doctors in horrible situations.
I always think of this story when people bring up cut off dates. I can't find it right now, maybe you can Google it. Anyway this couple in Texas WANTED their pregnancy, but at 20 weeks the wife started bleeding, went to the doctor and she was dilating. After several tests and attempts to stop it nothing worked. The doctor suggested an abortion but with the newly passed cut off date of 20 weeks the doctors wouldn't do it. She was technically still within the legal range, but it was too close, so they sent her home to labor for days until it finally came out. She was put through unnecessary emotional and physical distress because of an arbitrary cut off date.
The fact that the vast majority of unwanted pregnancies are terminated within the first trimester and late term ones are basically unheard of and that cut off dates put women and doctors in sticky circumstances is why I don't agree with cut off dates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WeHa
Well it's a good thing my thread wasn't asking If a embryo/fetus is a human life
I'm hung up on my question because it's the topic of the thread
Given your solutions none of those can be completed quick enough for the victim to still have an abortion.
They can't answer you, because there is no logical reason for it. If they consider it murder, then the circumstance of the pregnancy shouldn't matter, yet it does.
I don't think it's my or really anyone's business to tell others what to do with their bodies. A persons beliefs IMO are THEIRS alone. I have no right to step all over theirs just as they don't have any right to step on mine.
This is easy enough to discredit.
Is it acceptable for a pregnant woman to abuse drugs (legal or illegal) and cause permanent damage to the fetus? Do a little research of "fetal alcohol syndrome" or "neonatal abstinence syndrome" before answering.
If it's "anyone's business" to tell a pregnant woman she can't abuse drugs, then you are telling her what to do with her body in order to protect the future child. Going beyond this is just a matter of degree.
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