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Right off the bat, the first thought is that you don't *have* an automatic weapon- you most likely have neither the resources nor finances to obtain one. Automatic weapons, whether obtained legally or illegally, tend to be very expensive. The fact that you wrote something like this shows that you [currently] lack the appropriate knowledge and education to properly discuss the matter. This is not a slight or an insult, you simply do not have the necessary information...but that can be corrected if you wish to learn.
First lesson:
An automatic weapon, such as an assault weapon, machine gun or sub-machine gun fires continuously as long as the trigger is held down (until it runs out of cartridges).
A semi-automatic weapon fires only *one* round when the trigger is pressed, and the trigger must be released and pressed again to fire each subsequent round.
Now, making the assumption that you are thinking of an AR-15, which is a semi-automatic rifle that can be extremely accurate (in skilled hands) and fine for hunting, you should not have been able to just walk into a school with one. Even the short-barreled carbine models are rather large and difficult to conceal (as compared to a pistol). *Someone* should have been present and able to observe you attempting to enter the school with it.
But, to continue on with the scenario, let's assume that you either gain entry unimpeded or you kill the door watcher and enter. If you should encounter any armed resistance who successfully stops you, even if you managed to kill *some* victims, is not fewer victims dead a *better* outcome than if you were not stopped at all and were free to continue killing until you ran out of ammo?
There are two factors to consider here- Risk Assessment, and Risk Management. You need to assess the risk, in other words, you need to determine the probability that a particular event may/might occur. The next step is risk management, in which having determined that an element of risk is present, you take steps designed to reduce the amount of risk present and mitigate damage. This process is practically the same as when you purchase insurance on your car, your house or your life- you assess the risk and you purchase a product, an 'insurance' policy, in order to reduce the damage to your wallet in the event of some sort of accident (or, in the case of life insurance, to provide your dependents with financial income to mitigate the loss of you as the wage-earner).
An ancillary calculation in this matter is that of the cost to manage the risk, balanced against the probability of the risk occurring and the anticipated damage. If you buy a brand-new automobile for $30,000, a full coverage comprehensive insurance policy purchased for $600 is reasonable and prudent in order to protect you from the loss if said vehicle is damaged or stolen, because if you took out a loan you would still be on the hook for the money owed- the bank/finance company doesn't care what happened to the car, they just know that they gave you $30G and they want it back.
On the other hand, if you buy a $500 beater car, you aren't going to buy a $600 insurance policy on it because it is cheaper to just buy another one if something happens to it. You're only going to buy liability insurance, so that in the event that you or someone else gets hurt there will be some money for medical expenses or to pay for the damage you cause to someone else's property if you are at fault.
The tricky question here, is, what price do you put on the life of a child? 10 children? 50 children?
How much is 'too much' to spend to [attempt to] protect them?
It is practically impossible to predict when and where some random nutter, in possession of *any* implement or device that can/could be used to cause harm, is going to strike; and just slightly less impossible to predict the odds of the event occurring at any given (and otherwise peaceful) location.
What steps do you take, and how much (taxpayer) money do you spend to mitigate a risk for which you can make no accurate prediction as to the likelihood of the event occurring?
Depriving the general population of any particular implement that 99.9999% of owners are responsible in their use of said implement in a knee-jerk reaction is not the answer. If one person out of 50 million uses a device in a bad way, is it really reasonable to deprive the other 49,999,999 people of it? Let's suppose that some drunken construction worker, PO'd because he's getting laid off after a new school construction project is voted down, 'borrows' a crane with a wrecking ball and drives it to the 'old' school and starts knocking it down, killing a few dozen kids and teachers before the cops can get there and drag him off. Is it reasonable to outlaw cranes with wrecking balls because of it? Of course not, because the crane isn't responsible for the damage, the person operating it was, and the vast majority of crane owners use their cranes in the responsible and appropriate manner for the tools they are. "Oh, but this is different, this is an ugly black rifle that looks exactly the same as the one G.I. Joe goes to war with." No, it's the operator who is 'different', and who is responsible for the mayhem that *he* caused, not the other owners.
So, what steps do you take to mitigate this risk?
Arming [some of] the staff might not be such a bad idea, though it may be the least expensive of the options. But, I would not consider it to be the first line of defense, a good back-up plan, maybe.
My first line of defense would require some money spent to reconstruct a primary access point such that visitors would need to pass through staff office areas, a sort-of lobby with windows. There would be a staffed reception desk in the lobby. Further access to the interior of the school would require passing through not one, but two electronically locked doors in a series. The doors would be controlled by buttons at the reception desk, placed far enough away from the doors that a miscreant could not operate the buttons and pass through the doors himself (in the event of incapacitating the receptionist). The two interior doors would be spaced far enough apart that a miscreant could not hold both doors open at the same time in order to enable an accomplice to operate the buttons and then join the first, and the second door lock could not be released as long as the first door was open. A third switch would dead-bolt both doors, disabling the manual releases on the interior sides of the doors- cockroach gets in, but he can't get out. Windows would, of course, be bullet resistant.
The receptionist would also have an instant alarm button, like the hold-up alarms in banks and liquor stores.
This setup would prevent entry by one or two people, it would require a team of at least three and one would have to remain behind in the lobby, exposed to the [eventual] arrival of cops.
Another option is for the 'receptionist' to be armed (and trained), or could be placed in a separate secure cubby.
Of course, this only protects the primary access point. Other (secured) access points could potentially be exploited, but this would be another factor in the calculation of risk assessment and management, balanced against the costs of mitigating the [perceived] risks.
I'm glad you're such an expert. Where exactly did you obtain all your expertise about school and school personnel?
As a teacher I would be happy to be armed... When you pay me an School Resource Officer salary on top of what I already make. I ain't taking that risk for free.
Exactly. The gun lobby doesn't care a hoot about safety in the schools. They see this as a means of justifying even more guns.
Of course, this only protects the primary access point. Other (secured) access points could potentially be exploited, but this would be another factor in the calculation of risk assessment and management, balanced against the costs of mitigating the [perceived] risks.
At last, someone with concrete suggestions.
What would be a practical way to prevent the shooter from entering during the beginning or end of the day when large numbers of students (thousands at some schools) are passing through the doors?
Your solution may have prevented Cruz from gaining access, I think. Then he could not have pulled the fire alarm and created chaos.
I agree. I want to hear from the NRA type of people who always say that arming staff is the solution. It just doesn't make any sense.
You just did, 6 posts back.
Did you read it? Did you notice that I said that arming the staff was not THE solution?
Armed staff should NOT be the primary response, and none of the staff should be 'required' to be armed- a weapon in the hands of an untrained and unwilling person is useless at best, and at the worst makes that person more likely to be chosen as a target. No person who is not *resolved* to use a weapon (should it be necessary should *ever* produce one in an attempt to 'scare' an assailant. Producing a weapon without having the conviction to use it will, in most cases, result in that weapon being taken away...with a goodly chance that it will be taken out of a dead hand.
No one should be armed, who is not *willing* to take on that responsibility, and willing to deal with the results of using it if it should be necessary. It should go without saying, that those who are armed should also be well-trained, capable of good judgement and accuracy in the face of a highly stressful confrontation. (Unfortunately, even many cops fail in this regard.)
Quote:
As to getting into the building, are we going to militarize all schools with [b]mental[/n] detectors at all entry doors?
Not existing? How do we do that?
Ah, 'mental' detectors would be a boon in this type of situation. (Yeah, I know it's a typo, but still...)
Metal detectors are not 'militarization', and if I'm not mistaken, there are already some 'inner-city' schools that are so equipped.
However, metal detectors create a choke-point. A mental case who is intent on killing students just sees that as a crowd of sitting ducks and it makes his goal that much easier to accomplish. Go back and read my previous post...it wasn't just pulling words out of my butt- I have a certain amount of experience in providing various 'security services' in both military and secret government research facilities (including access/egress control), among other services, as well as individual and corporate protection services. I have more than a little practical experience in this area.
Right off the bat, the first thought is that you don't *have* an automatic weapon- you most likely have neither the resources nor finances to obtain one. Automatic weapons, whether obtained legally or illegally, tend to be very expensive....
An automatic weapon, such as an assault weapon, machine gun or sub-machine gun fires continuously as long as the trigger is held down (until it runs out of cartridges).
A semi-automatic weapon fires only *one* round when the trigger is pressed, and the trigger must be released and pressed again to fire each subsequent round.
Now, making the assumption that you are thinking of an AR-15,.. you should not have been able to just walk into a school with one. Someone should have been present ...
.........
If you should encounter any armed resistance who successfully stops you, even if you managed to kill *some* victims, is not fewer victims dead a *better* outcome than if you were not stopped at all and were free to continue killing until you ran out of ammo?
There are two factors to consider here- Risk Assessment, and Risk Management. You need to assess the risk, in other words, you need to determine the probability that a particular event may/might occur. The next step is risk management, ..(where) you take steps designed to reduce the amount of risk present and mitigate damage.
....
An ancillary calculation in this matter is .. the cost to manage the risk,...
The tricky question here, is, what price do you put on the life of a child? 10 children? 50 children?
How much is 'too much' to spend to [attempt to] protect them?
It is practically impossible to predict when and where some random nutter, in possession of *any* implement or device that can/could be used to cause harm, is going to strike; ....
Sorry I could only rep you once.
Harden the targets, they will be less vulnerable and much less likely to be selected by 'The Copycat Crazies'.
Of course they'll go somewhere else, like Walmart on the first of the month.
Last edited by PamelaIamela; 02-26-2018 at 05:27 PM..
You do realize the AK47 is the most mass produced and widely used full auto on the planet...right? Its not much of a stretch to assume PLENTY are finding their way into the US, heck just look at how many drugs are brought in, and on a CONSISTENT basis!!!
Flea markets and private sales/trades of full autos is booming, despite the law on 1986 and newer.
Cheeses, quit harping on the AK-47. The guy didn't use an AK, and flea market/private sales of full autos are most definitely NOT "booming". It costs *thousands* of dollars to obtain a full auto weapon whether legally or illegally. The people who have them are *well aware* of their value and they don't let them go cheap...you are totally talking through your...hat.
As a teacher I would be happy to be armed... When you pay me an School Resource Officer salary on top of what I already make. I ain't taking that risk for free.
And well you should, considering the police like to wait until it's safe to shoot back.
YOUR presence as a target would leave you much less choice, and I'm sure anyone inside who posessed a firearm would draw and ready it... and use it to protect themselves and the children.
I sure would and I'm an old retired lady!
Partial explanation above, though not specific to schools, it is applicable to many situations.
So you have none. Okay, thanks.
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