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The bolded is not a valid comparison, because people who call themselves transgender were not suddenly dropped into a different body.
The brain of a transgender female is more like the brain of a female than a male. The body is completely male. I think it's a pretty good comparison.
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Originally Posted by kayanne
Now, if you had asked me if I had been born with a man's body (and presumably had male chromosomes), but my preferences of clothing/activities etc were the same as mine now, would I feel like a man? I would say yes, because my set of feelings would be my only point of reference regarding how a "man feels." That's what I keep bringing up in these discussions.
My god, gender is much more than preferences of clothing and activities. There are real, biological differences between the brains of males and females. If you had been born with the brain you were born with, but you had a male body in every other way, the answer is no...you wouldn't feel like a male. You are your brain, not your genitalia. You would still feel as female as you do now.
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Originally Posted by kayanne
I feel how I feel, regardless of my physical body.
No, you feel how you feel because of the physical structure of your brain. There is nothing else.
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Originally Posted by kayanne
I may decide I want to dye my hair blonde, but it's not because "I was born with the wrong hair color." It's not because "I identify as a blonde." It's not because I have some special knowledge of "how it feels to be a blonde" and I know "my hair doesn't match my feelings." And dying my hair doesn't make me genetically blonde. Changing hair color is a harmless, fun thing to do.
But surgically removing/altering body parts because you "think" they are "wrong"---??? That sounds like a mental health issue to me. It's not something I believe we should encourage. I much prefer to accept people the way they are, without encouraging mutilation of their bodies.
Do you have any desire to engage with the actual evidence I posted? Or do you just want to post mostly irrelevant, non-analogous analogies like the blonde hair thing?
The brain of a transgender female is more like the brain of a female than a male. The body is completely male. I think it's a pretty good comparison.
You asked how I would feel if I were suddenly dropped into the body of a man. I have already spent my life in the body of a woman. "Transgendered" people do not spend decades in one body then get dropped into another. So NO, your comparison is not valid.
You asked how I would feel if I were suddenly dropped into the body of a man. I have already spent my life in the body of a woman. "Transgendered" people do not spend decades in one body then get dropped into another. So NO, your comparison is not valid.
So your argument is that gender is mostly the product of environment, not genetics or biology?
Ah yes, because being genuinely open-minded might cause you to change your opinion.
Imagine you were dropped into a man's body, ala Freaky Friday. Would you suddenly feel like a man? My guess is no.
But I feel that the example you gave is completely different cause people are not all of a sudden dropped into another body. Being born a man is different than being born a woman, and then all of a sudden one day they are dropped into a man's body against their will.
Being dropped into another body doesn't just happen, and you are born with that body, and you have had that body the whole time.
So I feel that transgender people are looking at it the wrong way, cause it didn't all of a sudden just happen like that one day, did it?
Like I feel that if a person believes that they felt that one day they were all of a sudden dropped into another body that is not there's that that person is having a delusion. I don't mean that as an insult or anything. I was told I have had delusions too. I am just saying I think that maybe is what it is.
There is question, though. Many biologists question it. If the link is inexorable, then 100% of people with male genitalia have male brains. This is a biological question, and there is evidence that such a link is not inexorable.
It isn't a moot point, though. If sex and gender are not inexorably linked, the transgender claim is valid. If they are, the transgender claim is not valid. Everything hinges on that question.
Maybe you understand "inexorable" differently. The link is inexorable. That doesn't mean it's 100%, but it's undeniable and inescapable.
Are you prepared to show why age and "how one feels about their age" is not valid? This is the point you keep ignoring. What age, race, species, etc. one "feels they are" is psychological, and therefore every bit as biological as one's gender.
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Originally Posted by Wittgenstein's Ghost
1. When did I mention public policy?
2. A person who was "born male" may have only been "born male" in terms of secondary sex traits. They may have had a female or female-ish brain all along. That's the point. The idea that transgender people have changed somewhere along the way is a faulty assumption. But as it pertains to age, age is analogous to sex, not gender. Sex and gender are both objective traits. I am not sure how I haven't explained this well enough yet. A person who says they are a transgender female ("born male") isn't making a claim about their sex. They aren't pointing to their male genitalia and saying "No, it's female genitalia; I'm a female." Instead, they are claiming their brain is a female or female-ish brain. A person who was born thirty years ago yet says "No, I am fifty" is akin to a person who is pointing to male genitalia and saying it is female genitalia.
1. Again, you didn't mention public policy; I did. What else could be the point of identifying someone as "transgender"? Why else would it matter if a man wears dresses or is under the delusion that he's a woman? There's nothing to prevent him from doing either. What you really want is for the government and society to recognize him legally as a woman. Isn't that true?
2. IT IS THE SAME THING. Someone who is "transage" is not pointing to their birth date of 1958 and saying "I'm 30". They're not making a claim about their actual objective age. They are claiming(or could claim) their brain is 30 or 30ish, and it has been all along. That's the point.
But now you've got me a bit confused. You're gonna have to get your story straight. In post #14, you just told me:"By definition, gender cannot be objective." That's a quote from you. Now you're telling me that "sex and gender are both objective traits". So, if you're not sure why you haven't explained this well enough yet, it's because you're not really making much sense. That's a clear contradiction. You're going to have to reconcile these two statements.
I have not read ANY of the posts on this thread, but the title of this just struck me as being one more example of how crazy things have become in the 21st century! It used to be that many, if not most things, could be considered shades of gray, but how insane is it that we have now come to the point where black is actually white, and white is actually black. (And, to be clear, I am NOT using black and white to describe races in this case, but just saying that it is crazy, imo, for people argue that the opposite of what is true is actually reality.)
Last edited by katharsis; 08-23-2018 at 08:45 AM..
Maybe you understand "inexorable" differently. The link is inexorable. That doesn't mean it's 100%, but it's undeniable and inescapable.
No, "inexorable" means impossible to stop. 100% correlation. That implies that if a person has male secondary sex traits, they have a male brain. The studies I posted above show that to be measurably false.
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Originally Posted by enigmatico
Are you prepared to show why age and "how one feels about their age" is not valid? This is the point you keep ignoring. What age, race, species, etc. one "feels they are" is psychological, and therefore every bit as biological as one's gender.
Are you prepared to show biological evidence that trans-age people actually have different brains? If such evidence exists, then we can come up with a different term, such as "trans-experienced" or something. But, as I've said numerous times, age is analogous to sex, not gender. A person who claims to be of the male sex even if she has female secondary sex traits is simply wrong, just as a person who claims to have an age of 30 if they are 60 is wrong. Are they 30 on the inside? Maybe, but there's no evidence that such a phenomenon exists. If evidence does show up, then we can come up with a term that is similar to transgender (not trans-age).
Quote:
Originally Posted by enigmatico
1. Again, you didn't mention public policy; I did. What else could be the point of identifying someone as "transgender"? Why else would it matter if a man wears dresses or is under the delusion that he's a woman? There's nothing to prevent him from doing either. What you really want is for the government and society to recognize him legally as a woman. Isn't that true?
One reason would be social acceptance. Not having people like you call them delusional even though there is real scientific evidence that they aren't delusional is a worthy goal.
Of course I want government and social recognition for trans people. But I hadn't mentioned that in this thread. We are simply talking about the legitimacy of trans people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enigmatico
2. IT IS THE SAME THING. Someone who is "transage" is not pointing to their birth date of 1958 and saying "I'm 30". They're not making a claim about their actual objective age. They are claiming(or could claim) their brain is 30 or 30ish, and it has been all along. That's the point.
You keep making this same mistake. Such a person wouldn't be trans-age just as a person who has a female brain in a male body isn't trans-sex. They are trans-gender. I don't know how you aren't grasping this. Age is objective, like sex.
Quote:
Originally Posted by enigmatico
But now you've got me a bit confused. You're gonna have to get your story straight. In post #14, you just told me:"By definition, gender cannot be objective." That's a quote from you. Now you're telling me that "sex and gender are both objective traits". So, if you're not sure why you haven't explained this well enough yet, it's because you're not really making much sense. That's a clear contradiction. You're going to have to reconcile these two statements.
I meant to say "age and sex are both objective traits."
I have not read ANY of the posts on this thread, but the title of this just struck me as being one more example of how crazy things have become in the 21st century! It used to be that many, if not most things, could be considered shades of gray, but how insane is it that we have now come to the point where black is actually white, and white is actually black. (And, to be clear, I am NOT using black and white to describe races in this case, but just saying that it is crazy, imo, for people argue that the opposite of what is true is actually reality.)
Yeah, it's almost as crazy as the 19th century, when we were forced to believe that black people weren't animals and women weren't property.
There is real scientific evidence (I posted some just a few posts up) that clearly indicates trans people aren't just delusional.
But I feel that the example you gave is completely different cause people are not all of a sudden dropped into another body. Being born a man is different than being born a woman, and then all of a sudden one day they are dropped into a man's body against their will.
Being dropped into another body doesn't just happen, and you are born with that body, and you have had that body the whole time.
So I feel that transgender people are looking at it the wrong way, cause it didn't all of a sudden just happen like that one day, did it?
Like I feel that if a person believes that they felt that one day they were all of a sudden dropped into another body that is not there's that that person is having a delusion. I don't mean that as an insult or anything. I was told I have had delusions too. I am just saying I think that maybe is what it is.
So are you arguing that gender is actually largely a product of environment?
Yeah, it's almost as crazy as the 19th century, when we were forced to believe that black people weren't animals and women weren't property.
There is real scientific evidence (I posted some just a few posts up) that clearly indicates trans people aren't just delusional.
Actually, I don't dispute the fact that SOME people that ARE transgendered, as I stated in the recent thread about the 12-year-old who was threatened in Oklahoma.
And your first sentence is completely irrelevant. No one who was at all educated and not delusional (or trying to justify horrendous behavior) has claimed that blacks were animals; and bride buying is STILL going on. And, FYI, animals are not the opposite of humans -- they are just a different form of life that can't be classified as plants. (In my post, I was talking about opposites, as in some people once believed something and now are being led to believe that the opposite of what they were taught as a child is now the truth. And in some cases, I agree with the current revisionist thinking, but not in all cases.)
Last edited by katharsis; 08-23-2018 at 01:20 PM..
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