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We have passed all sorts of no tolerance laws that require a LEO to act, rather than use his own personal discretion. This leads to hiring "law enforcers" vs "peace officers." They are trained to enforce at all costs up to the point of using lethal force to get one to comply. De-escalation doesn't seem to be a favored tactic these days.
We should go back to giving the officer on the beat some degree of discretion and ability to de-escalate a situation without being fired.
Arresting and roughing up an elderly woman because code enforcement doesn't like their standard of lawn maintenance comes to mind ie Ogden, UT. This is what we get with zero tolerance laws and hiring enforcers to enact them. This part of the blame is on us, the citizens.
Qualified Immunity is another concept that needs to be legislated out of existence, ie not holding public officials and servants personally accountable if they get out of line or violate someones inalienable rights.
This would make a LEO think twice about roughing someone up because they are having a bad day and the citizen didn't respect their authority enough. If someones livelihood and pension were on the line, they would treat the public a lot differently.
Do you "think" anything someone says to a cop warrants the cop arresting/beating them?
No, I absolutely do not but some people are just too stupid, drunk, high, armed, etc. and don't realize and/or don't care what consequences may come to them when they behave in a manner that may possibly be to their detriment.
AND some people are completely innocent of everything and just met the wrong officer, at the wrong time and maybe just "guilty" of wrong time, wrong place.
And I do not pretend for one minute, in my little pea brain, that there is not profiling done on a specific and particular groups of human beings. When this occurs, I as a citizen am disgusted and ashamed of them and hope they get caught and punished to the harshest degree possible.
They have a very incomprehensible and stressful job and I do not envy them but I do not have any answers or solutions for this. We can't do with them and we can't do without them.
Having said that, I fully support body cams on all officers, at all times as well as any and all judgements which they are held accountable for and I realize it is not nearly as many times as it is warranted.
Do you "think" anything someone says to a cop warrants the cop arresting/beating them?
No, I absolutely do not but some people are just too stupid, drunk, high, armed, etc. and don't realize and/or don't care what consequences may come to them when they behave in a manner that may possibly be to their detriment.
AND some people are completely innocent of everything and just met the wrong officer, at the wrong time and maybe just "guilty" of wrong time, wrong place.
And I do not pretend for one minute, in my little pea brain, that there is not profiling done on a specific and particular groups of human beings. When this occurs, I as a citizen am disgusted and ashamed of them and hope they get caught and punished to the harshest degree possible.
They have a very incomprehensible and stressful job and I do not envy them but I do not have any answers or solutions for this. We can't do with them and we can't do without them.
Having said that, I fully support body cams on all officers, at all times as well as any and all judgements which they are held accountable for and I realize it is not nearly as many times as it is warranted.
And if the body cam is turned off by the officer, it is treated the same as lying in court.
An awful lot of people get into physical fights over something somebody said & if the cops are called; they get arrested for assault.
So, in a sense, if you are asking if it's okay for the police to break the law ... when arresting others for allegedly breaking the law? I'd have to answer: "No."
In the mind of the person being arrested they are just stating their case and trying to persuade the officer that he is mistaken
In his own mind he is not threatening angry loud or aggressive even if he puts his hands on the officer he may not feel he has posed a threat
What the arrested party is experiencing and what the officer is experiencing may be very very very different
Time and time again you see videos where a person and a cop are arguing and despite the person not physically attacking them in anyway the cop eventually just grabs the person and arrests/beats them.
That is almost entirely due to the fact that few police departments employ any kind of psychological screening.
The, um, "psychological evaluation" (snicker) used by the Cincinnati police department consists of you and eleven other candidates having a round-table discussion with someone who may or may not be an actual psy-doc (meaning they have a doctoral degree in psychology and have also completed one year of supervised post-doctoral work and 2 years of practice).
That is in no way a proper psychological evaluation.
A proper psychological evaluation requires a police candidate to complete a written psychological test. From this test, it is possible to determine a person's value system, which incorporates a person's moral and ethical views, as well as get a sense of how they will most likely handle interactions with people.
And then, a one-on-one one-hour interview with an actual psy-doc.
That would accomplish a number of things.
It would weed out the badge-wearers. These are people who wear a badge and drive around their 8-hour shift doing nothing, but, you know, it's cool, because they wear a badge. Being a cop is a status symbol for them.
The worse kind of badge-wearers are those who demand free food from restaurants, stop and harass female drivers, and interject themselves into situations when police were not called or no police presence is required. They do that only to show-off.
Those test would also readily identify the "Do as I say, not as I do" crowd.
They are most likely to use both force unnecessarily, and also excessive force.
The majority of police skills involve interpersonal communications. Simply taking with individuals can de-escalate a situation.
Yes, there are times when a person is intoxicated or on drugs, preventing any possibility of de-escalation.
Even when people are not intoxicated or on drugs, they are often in an agitated state. Some people in an agitated state are beyond reason. There is no rational discussion to be had, and neither the police nor anyone else is going to verbally resolve the situation.
However, the majority of people in an agitated state can be reasoned with to de-escalate the situation, and there are many verbal techniques that can be utilized to do that. Police need only to use those techniques to avoid physical confrontations.
Psychological tests also identify those with no moral compass. Those are the police that steal drugs and drug money, commit other crimes, up to and including framing innocent persons and lying under oath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by engineman
Walk in the cops shoes for a time, it will change your opinion.
If a cop gives a lawful order then must comply, failure to do so results in an arrest and charge of "failure to obey a police officer" and "obstructing a police officer." You can hate cops all you want, but it's best not to be ignorant of the videos you are watching and what gives cops the 100% right to arrest/take you down.
America's cops are low paid and they deal with low life scum all day. They're not interested in arguing with you, they're just going to arrest you and I support that 100%.
The pure disrespect that citizens have for cops only justifies their actions even more. They are serving their community and we in turn treat them like pure crap. Unless you plan to be a cop, you have no room to judge.
So yes, what you do or say to a cop DOES warrant a beat down because cops are not going to sit back and take that bullcrap from the scum of society who they have to look for, arrest, or capture every single day. I don't see anyone here patrolling soutside Chicago.
I agree that a beatdown is warranted in many cases, especially if one is refusing a lawful order. I'm good with it.People need to learn to have some respect for the law.
But I don;t agree with you on cop being low paid. LA and NYC cops for example make like 80K+ after only 5 years or so. Thats quite a bit for the limited education that job requires. If you're going into that field...much like teachers........you know exactly what you will be paid for the next decade or so until there's a contract change.
That is almost entirely due to the fact that few police departments employ any kind of psychological screening.
The, um, "psychological evaluation" (snicker) used by the Cincinnati police department consists of you and eleven other candidates having a round-table discussion with someone who may or may not be an actual psy-doc (meaning they have a doctoral degree in psychology and have also completed one year of supervised post-doctoral work and 2 years of practice).
That is in no way a proper psychological evaluation.
A proper psychological evaluation requires a police candidate to complete a written psychological test. From this test, it is possible to determine a person's value system, which incorporates a person's moral and ethical views, as well as get a sense of how they will most likely handle interactions with people.
And then, a one-on-one one-hour interview with an actual psy-doc.
That would accomplish a number of things.
It would weed out the badge-wearers. These are people who wear a badge and drive around their 8-hour shift doing nothing, but, you know, it's cool, because they wear a badge. Being a cop is a status symbol for them.
The worse kind of badge-wearers are those who demand free food from restaurants, stop and harass female drivers, and interject themselves into situations when police were not called or no police presence is required. They do that only to show-off.
Those test would also readily identify the "Do as I say, not as I do" crowd.
They are most likely to use both force unnecessarily, and also excessive force.
The majority of police skills involve interpersonal communications. Simply taking with individuals can de-escalate a situation.
Yes, there are times when a person is intoxicated or on drugs, preventing any possibility of de-escalation.
Even when people are not intoxicated or on drugs, they are often in an agitated state. Some people in an agitated state are beyond reason. There is no rational discussion to be had, and neither the police nor anyone else is going to verbally resolve the situation.
However, the majority of people in an agitated state can be reasoned with to de-escalate the situation, and there are many verbal techniques that can be utilized to do that. Police need only to use those techniques to avoid physical confrontations.
Psychological tests also identify those with no moral compass. Those are the police that steal drugs and drug money, commit other crimes, up to and including framing innocent persons and lying under oath.
I have.
All cops are bastards.
Lol. Been arrested?
And you clearly don't know how many depts actually do conduct psychological evals.
The op is about speech not actions. Failure to comply is a different topic. Stay on topic!
Nicely stated.
To aide the public opinion vs the courts rulings. Cohen vs California settled this speech. Basically you can curse all ya want in public to anyone ... when it falls into actions of harm or inciting a riot ...then a civil servant can intercede. Otherwise, guess what? Your allowed to be free to speak.
On aside note. Baloney to an officer 'handling' a person without following acknowledgment of the code being violated. A citizen is not mandated to comply . If I resist arrest I may well be saving my own life in the process.
Time and time again you see videos where a person and a cop are arguing and despite the person not physically attacking them in anyway the cop eventually just grabs the person and arrests/beats them. Look, I can understand if someone throws a punch at a cop and especially goes after them with a knife and gun the cop taking the person down, but when it comes to a purely verbal altercation other than deciding to give a guy a ticket why arrest and get violent with someone that is purely verbally say cussing you out or whatever? It's completely absurd.
It just seems as if most cops think any kind of "disrespect" warrants an arrest/beating. Hell, as awful as it would be a person could say something like "I'm going to rape your wife and kids!" and they still have no right to arrest them.
OF COURSE NOT!! The sooner, COP's stop intimidating innocence.. claiming cr@ppo$$a against someone/detaining them or chasing them then shooting them JUST because the can has become a go to common practice... Anyone who has a warrant against them always has a group of LE that will announce who they are etc. Cop's who are so thin skinned and can't take attitude or talkback.. BEST give up their BADGE... When did COPS NOT learn that you TAKE CRAP TALK from where it comes from.. Threats were always common for frontline workers.. Note it and today ( video tape it) document such a threat.. BUT many claims by police of threats have been exposed so many times over decades.. Recording devices will weed out the BAD ACTORS!!
BTW~~ Since when does a "FRONTLINE" professional get offended by verbal threats/angry looks or even being offensive JUST because YOU have a BADGE? Snowflake COP's like that are either ill trained or worse have a hair triggers that was not caught in " Vetting" by Police academies prior to academy LE training!!
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