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It is fully acceptable to be anti Zionist and pro Palestinian. Take a look on college campuses for instance. There is a lot of that. But I sometimes think that the real feelings are sometimes more anti semitism against Jews than they for the Palestinian cause . What do you think?
For my thinking, I think the Palestinians have gotten a raw deal over the years. And I think they have a right to their own nation.
At the same time, I think Israel has a right to exist and to be safe.
I don't know any Palestinians, so I'm able to make any judgments about them as a people.
I know quite a few Jews, but none that live or ever lived in Israel, so I can't make many judgments there, either.
I don't think it is as clear as all Palestinians are in one boat, all Jews are in another, and the two boats are on a collision course. That would suggest that being pro-Palestinian is necessarily anti-Jew (or anti-Zionist - or anti-Semitic - or anti-whatever). My studies suggest it is way, way more complicated than that.
Full disclosure: When I lived in the Middle East, my interpreter was a Palestinian. I had great respect for him and his wife, who welcomed me into their home as if I were a visiting relative. The Government of Israel has also hosted me to Tel Aviv - twice - and they were similarly generous hosts. Over the years I have become privileged to know dozens and dozens of both Palestinian Muslims and Israeli Jews as friends, colleagues and fellow researchers (a couple of whom really hate each other).
As a general demographic, my assessment is that the Palestinian Muslims have been on the losing end of the stick since well before 1917, and not just with respect to the State of Israel. The British, the Arabs and the Europeans all played a part in their plight. As a diaspora, the Palestinian condition is made even more confusing by issues such as the Nakbah ('Catastrophe') of 1947, the 'right of return,' the Islamic Revolution of 1979, the 'war of the womb,' and today's 'occupation.' Nobel prize aside, Yasir Arafat didn't do the Palestinian cause any favors - particularly at Camp David in 2000. (The Palestinians will never get a better deal that the Barak government offered there. Hence, the running joke among historians that Arafat never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.) Today, the Palestinian cause is further complicated by Islamists (think: Hamas, PIJ and now ISIS) who purport to represent the Palestinians. (My read is that they don't.) It is also confounded by the Israeli penchant to discriminate against this already disenfranchised community. Yeah, if I were a Palestinian Muslim, I'd feel pretty set upon myself.
Similarly, the Jews (both pre-1917 Palestinian Jews and later immigrant Jews) have a point. If you listen to Ronen Bergman's two presentations at Rancho Mirage on January 31, 2019 (see: c-span.org), he summarizes the Jewish position following WWII exceptionally well. He said that during WWII, the Jews learned three lessons: First, there will always be people who want to kill Jews. Second, no foreign government will ever protect them as a demographic. Third, they must therefore have their own land to protect themselves, and defend that land to the death. That land is currently known as Israel, which is about the size of New Jersey. And they live in a tough neighborhood. In 1948 and 1973, the neighbors invaded Israel. Meanwhile, Iran and Syria and Libya and Iraq and the PLO and the PFLP and the DFLP and... well, you get the point - have all engaged in activities deleterious to the Israelis' well-being. In summary, lots of folks have tried to hurt Israel. Yeah, were I an Israeli Jew, I'd feel set upon myself, because the world community also treats the Israeli Jews as a disenfranchised community.
And if that weren't enough, there is a difference between religious Zionism and political Zionism. So which one are the college kids pushing - or resisting? (Heck. How many even know the difference?)
So my debate position would be: People can be anti-Zionist if they want. Just figure out which one (religious or political) and argue the position. Or they can be pro-Zionist if they want. Same conditions apply.
They can also be pro- or anti- Palestinian if they want. Again, they have to carve out their position from a very complex set of conditions. Secular Palestine? Islamist Palestine? Pre-1917 Palestine? Post-1947 Israel? What of the diaspora? The differences are huge.
To my mind, the debate question does not call for a mutually exclusive answer between Palestine and Zionism; it does not seem to me to be a zero-sum game. I think the Palestinian Muslims have an absolute right to feel disenfranchised. So do the world's Jews. The Readers Digest version of this is that everyone wants to squeeze these two relatively large, disenfranchised communities into a piece of real estate the size of a small US state.
(Insert former CIA Director and former SecDef Bill Gates' favorite question here: "And then what?")
Love the debate. Can we perhaps re-cast the question in terms of, 'Both (religious) communities have a point, and there is very little land to work with. Now what?'
It is fully acceptable to be anti Zionist and pro Palestinian. Take a look on college campuses for instance. There is a lot of that. But I sometimes think that the real feelings are sometimes more anti semitism against Jews than they for the Palestinian cause . What do you think?
I guess it depends on how you define an "anti-Semite". Today, it would appear that questioning anything Israel does will get you labeled as such. That is, if your moral compass(for some odd reason) says that Israeli soldiers probably shouldn't be shooting stone-throwing Palestinian children in Gaza, that must mean you're an anti-Semite. If you think the wholesale slaughter and forcible expulsion of hundreds of thousands of people from their homeland in 1948 was morally questionable, then congratulations! That makes you an anti-Semite, too!
I'm not sure why you would expect anyone to separate Zionism and its consequences from the perpetrators. It's like a mother telling her child's killer: "I hate what you did, but I don't hate you. Oh, and I also don't hate the millions of people from your tribe who wanted you to do it, watched you do it, and cheered you on".
For my thinking, I think the Palestinians have gotten a raw deal over the years.
No doubt. But how much of that circumstance is self inflicted? How much by their brethren?
And what is at the root of those factors?
Quote:
And I think they have a right to their own nation.
"The Palestinians have actually had numerous opportunities to create an independent state,
but have repeatedly rejected the offers (see detail)" ~quora LINK here
Quote:
At the same time, I think Israel has a right to exist and to be safe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi
For my thinking, I think the Palestinians have gotten a raw deal over the years.
No doubt. But how much of that circumstance is self inflicted? How much by their brethren?
And what is at the root of those factors? I'm not judging that. I can't accurately do so. It certainly is a factor.
Quote:
And I think they have a right to their own nation.
"The Palestinians have actually had numerous opportunities to create an independent state,
but have repeatedly rejected the offers (see detail)" ~quora LINK here
No matter how much one negotiates, or how much a group negotiates, it does not mean that the "deal(s) is/are appropriate or fair.
Quote:
At the same time, I think Israel has a right to exist and to be safe.
To say the very least on the points.
"The Palestinians have actually had numerous opportunities to create an independent state, but have repeatedly rejected the offers (see detail)" ~quora LINK here
But that's a bit disingenuous. Of course Palestinians have been offered their own state, but not one that includes their Holy Land. Surely you know this. This isn't just a question of Palestinians living peacefully with Jews(which historically, no one has ever been able to do for very long), it's a battle over what both groups consider a sacred piece of land.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational
To say the very least on the points.
Why do you think Israel has some "right" to exist? Ultimately, every nation is able to inhabit the land which they can defend. Israel exists today, like every other country, because they've been able to defend it in one way or another, not because they have any particular "right" to it.
I'm Jewish, I live in the US. As a basic part of my world view, I am on the side of the oppressed. In Israel, the Palestinians are oppressed. I don't care if they are sinless or not, they are still oppressed. I don't care if Israel is beset with enemies either. The Palestinians are STILL oppressed, therefore I am in their court, and not in that of the oppressors.
Plus, Israel is turning into a rightwing militant theocracy, and I am never in favor of those, no matter what the religion.
I'm not an anti-semite (believe it or not, I know Jews who are). I'm just on the side of the victims. That's all.
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