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To clarify what I mean by " legitimate " demographic groups , I simply mean all demographic groups that are non criminal in nature .
In short I am not suggesting that the right to form reservations be given to thieves , child molesters , and so forth .
At any rate to kick off this thread by expounding my own viewpoint , I'm of the opinion that an endeavor like this would certainly be worth a try , however for reasons of caution I'll personally be voting other in the poll option I'll be linking to this thread .
To elaborate I think no great harm could come of Congress passing a law allowing all legitimate ( i.e. non criminal in nature ) demographic groups to form their own reservations/autonomous communities/whatever you want to call them , because ( IMHO ) there quite simply seem to be plenty of people out there these days who would be better off living separately from the mainstream of American society and vice versa .
After all , what is the point of them living in a society they so fundamentally want to change , when such change is unlikely to ever come about particularly in a peaceful/orderly fashion ?
Of course many people will object to my suggestion on the grounds that it will encourage ignorance/separatism , to which my response is that ignorance/separatism have always and will always exist , not to mention that I don't see why the act of allowing people to live in an ignorant/separatist manner is incompatible with the ideal of liberty/open society/everything the USA is supposed to be .
I mean I certainly agree that not wanting anything to do with other people simply because they are black , white , Christian , Muslim , gay , straight , liberal , conservative , etc. , is an ignorant attitude , however as long as the people who have that sort of attitude aren't out there violating the natural rights of the individuals they want nothing to do with , then I see no reason to stop them .
American society has spent far too much time as it is trying to get people to like each other as it is and especially seeing the ( increasingly apparent IMHO ) failure of said project , I fail to see why letting those who can't get along go their separate ways would do any harm , as long as they were to do so peacefully .
Furthermore the prospect of American society collapsing as a result of everyone moving to remote reservations is a very unlikely one , what with relatively few people having the guts to actually go through with it .
A thing that brings me to the second most important point of the very real prospect of this right bringing about a thaw in the current hot societal/political climate .
After all it's a simple fact that it's much simpler to exist within mainstream society ( regardless of all the grievances one may have against it ) than outside of it and methinks many of these present day radicals would likely cool off when faced with the prospect of actually making their own way via setting up their own society .
It's a fact that many hippie communes didn't survive the seventies and I suspect the same would happen to many of these newfangled reservations/autonomous communities were they to spring up .
Most importantly I think , extending this right could quite possibly take the steam out of the sails of the especially dangerous radicals who go on about the need to effect revolutionary change .
After all if one is free to form his own reservation where one can live and do as he pleases , then why should one heed the rhetoric of present day wannabe revolutionary leaders ?
And last but not least this idea definitely has legal precedent in this country , what with the existence of federally recognized Native American reservations , so I highly doubt that some sort of insurmountable legal barrier would bar the implementation of this measure .
Not everything that seems good turns out good though , which is why I'll ( as mentioned before ) vote cautious option of other .
Anyways let me know what y'all think of this issue .
Moderator edit: Please note in forum rules that polls are not permitted in Great Debates. Thank you.
Last edited by Rachel NewYork; 09-13-2020 at 06:21 PM..
Woah - thought-provoking! Not sure the reservation model has worked real well for American Indians, but it's a very interesting idea and I congratulate you. Thank you.
That said... eh, I don't know. When you say reservations, you mean only the Feds and the locals can enforce laws, I imagine, not state or county governments. Or what do you mean? Maybe you could expand on that a little. I don't think there's any such thing as a place one can live and do as one pleases. One is always constrained by those around one. The hope to find such places has certainly been a motivating factor - look at the Puritans - but do you think they were happy with how their experiment worked out? I doubt it.
I also believe there's a strong thread in American jurisprudence that views each state as a testing ground for different legal regimes. So in that sense and to that extent, we have reservations now; they're called states.
Woah - thought-provoking! Not sure the reservation model has worked real well for American Indians, but it's a very interesting idea and I congratulate you. Thank you.
That said... eh, I don't know. When you say reservations, you mean only the Feds and the locals can enforce laws, I imagine, not state or county governments. Or what do you mean? Maybe you could expand on that a little. I don't think there's any such thing as a place one can live and do as one pleases. One is always constrained by those around one. The hope to find such places has certainly been a motivating factor - look at the Puritans - but do you think they were happy with how their experiment worked out? I doubt it.
I also believe there's a strong thread in American jurisprudence that views each state as a testing ground for different legal regimes. So in that sense and to that extent, we have reservations now; they're called states.
Just a few thoughts.
I mean the way in which present day Native American reservations function , with perhaps a greater degree of autonomy .
Basically the inhabitants of such reservations would be subject to federal laws as far as the treatment of outsiders/people traveling through the reservation would be concerned , though they would certainly reserve the right to restrict or even completely ban their passage , with all other legal matters as it concerned their tribe would be left to their discretion .
Such reservations/autonomous zones could also be composed of present day city neighborhoods and/or individual neighborhoods of a particular city would be allowed to reserve the right to autonomy with respect to certain issues ( i.e. policing ) while remaining under the jurisdiction of the city for other things .
In short all the current incidents involving the police occurring right now in many heavily minority inner city neighborhoods , could be conceivably avoided if said communities were to be given the reservation like right of forming their own police force/community watch group .
In short all the current incidents involving the police occurring right now in many heavily minority inner city neighborhoods , could be conceivably avoided if said communities were to be given the reservation like right of forming their own police force/community watch group .
Hmm. I would be afraid that their ability to train and hire police would be severely limited by the overall poverty of their environment. Property taxes pay for cops! It's just another of the ways the rich support society - they pay for cops for all of us. If these poverty-stricken neighborhoods had to pay for their own cops, I suspect they'd get pretty low-quality policing.
Hmm. I would be afraid that their ability to train and hire police would be severely limited by the overall poverty of their environment. Property taxes pay for cops! It's just another of the ways the rich support society - they pay for cops for all of us. If these poverty-stricken neighborhoods had to pay for their own cops, I suspect they'd get pretty low-quality policing.
Eh, who knows. Not me.
That's a very pertinent point , though such communities could receive other sources of funding besides property taxes .
For instance sympathetic organizations could obviously make donations to help the formation of such community police forces , not to mention that more permanent sources of revenue could be found were these communities to extend their rights of autonomy to the economic sphere .
In short said communities could ( for example ) establish casinos , like many Native American tribes have done , or rent out rehabilitated old buildings for use to tech companies .
The same sort of federal tax credits that Native American reservations enjoy could be applied to them as well .
As others have noted above, the concept of "a reservation" for the Am Ind hasn't worked out well.
Immigrant groups have traditionally formed their own reservations, so to speak-- the ethnic neighborhood. That provided certain advantages in economic & social support, but note that "real success" doesn't occur for members of the group until they are able to move out of the neighborhood and join main stream society.
Stokely Carmichael et al. advocated Black Separatism back in the 60s, but as others pointed out in earlier posts here, the tax base would prove to be problematic, and the idea faded after that was considered.
...and do we really need to bring up the most obvious fault of such plans, in this day when societal unity is so lacking in America?
As others have noted above, the concept of "a reservation" for the Am Ind hasn't worked out well.
Immigrant groups have traditionally formed their own reservations, so to speak-- the ethnic neighborhood. That provided certain advantages in economic & social support, but note that "real success" doesn't occur for members of the group until they are able to move out of the neighborhood and join main stream society.
Stokely Carmichael et al. advocated Black Separatism back in the 60s, but as others pointed out in earlier posts here, the tax base would prove to be problematic, and the idea faded after that was considered.
...and do we really need to bring up the most obvious fault of such plans, in this day when societal unity is so lacking in America?
Could you elaborate on what you think is the most obvious fault of such plans ?
Americans have always had the right to freedom of association, and many religious groups persecuted in Europe (such as the Amish) immigrated to America for that very reason and to form their own religious communities. I'm not so sure that government should be involved in telling people where they may or may not live, or in enforcing the existence of any "autonomous zones."
However, I see no problem with individuals organizing their own communities based on a desire to live with like-minded others. Hasidic Jews in America have been doing this for generations because traditional Judaism insists on a separation from the secular world. This includes Jews of all colors.
Last edited by Rachel NewYork; 09-13-2020 at 09:24 AM..
For thousands of years, DIVIDE ET IMPERA was motto of conquerors. Only countries, peoples, that stood united against an enemy, stayed independent.
As an example, look at Kievan Rus and Mongol invasion. That country was the largest and most powerful territory at the time. Mongols conquered it with no major effort for reason very simple.
It consisted on 16 "dukeships" each one squabbling with its neighbors and each duke pretending to be the king of them all.
Instead of standing united against Mongols, they were handpicked one by one or, succumbed to conquerors after some beneficial promises.
That was TYPICAL example of how smaller military force can overcome significantly larger one, if taken in chunks.
Thread is confusing human aggregations based on say, religious, convictions and, reservations, that are pretty much states within states. With their own regulations, health care, politicians, law enforcement, culture, religion and, unfortunately, long term animosity towards outsiders.
Like as if we do not have enough "independence" shown, as it is, by states, based on their governments political prejudices, you want to break this all down into further, smaller subgroups?
Rachel, I'll touch on rather sensitive nerve but, you do understand that, part of eyebrows raised towards Jewish communities was, always, their seclusion and self isolation from others. This ALWAYS makes folks wonder - what is that they are hiding there?
I say, it a very dangerous idea. Country needs to be united, UNITED, not kept broken down under any pretexts. OP is typical Overton Window entry. This is how it starts.
Always, always remember historical examples, how pieced out countries were conquered and held in submission. Entire Roman Empire flourished on that principle and made MAJOR effort, maintaining separation in its vassals.
United we stand. Broken into pieces, we become slaves to those, that are united.
Rachel, I'll touch on rather sensitive nerve but, you do understand that, part of eyebrows raised towards Jewish communities was, always, their seclusion and self isolation from others. This ALWAYS makes folks wonder - what is that they are hiding there?
Yes, of course I realize this. But even suspicion and antisemitism has not prevented the Jewish people from historically (and often tragically) resisting assimilation.
People should have a right to live in peace, and allow others to do likewise.
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