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That's more or less my theory on why poorer people, particularly the rural poor, often have more kids and pets than one would think they'd want to deal with, too many mouths to feed... It looks that way from a modern perspective, but given the evolutionary trajectory of humanity, it's only relatively recently that we devoted the youth of our children to learning rather than work, and that animals were kept just as pets rather than for utilitarian purposes. Having many kids and animals was a way to grow one's prosperity, through probably a vast majority of human history across all populations on the planet, I would think.
I'm taking considerable interest in observing the planks being laid in the authoritarian push here and elsewhere, though. That individuals should have no desire to have value in their own lives, we all ought to accept our role as livestock to benefit the few, the godlike ranchers or shepherds in power above us. Obey! Work! Breed! Consume...but not too much, and only how and when you're told! Don't reach your chubby toddler hand for happiness or you'll earn a beating! Gotta stimulate the economy...no...no wait, gotta cool the economy! Heck it, the only thing that's understood about the economy is that it's bad if the regular people have any money. No savings! In fact if you can die in debt that would be best! Whack those dirty poors with a stick until a grand society falls out! Whee!
Nah, the fact is there are enough resources and then some for everyone to be having a pretty good life and no GOOD reason for so many in the world to go without. And I believe that so long as the few deliberately squeeze the people and hoard all of the value, the "herd" SHOULD perhaps go on a reproductive strike. At the least. Let them play their games of hate and rage and division, stress out the people, see what happens. Eff around, guys! Find out.
Yeah I'm pretty sure I felt that way until some point in my kids' adolescence. Then the hormonal motherhood brain chemicals started to fizzle out and I woke up and looked around and realized with somewhat more clarity my situation. And it wasn't good.
I love my kids, I really do, I adore them. Particularly my youngest...not in some arbitrary "he's my favorite" kind of a way, we just have a closer relationship. (My sons both being young adults now.) But I still feel a furious resentment towards their father and a sense that a great deal was stolen from me.
But look...I'm trying to quit smoking right now so I will admit that I am ~TETCHY.~ Boiling over a bit with thoughts about the men I've known and the men I've run into who feel that there is and should be room for their dreams and ambitions and thoughts about their SELVES and their IDENTITIES when they are fathers to children but they take for granted that the kids' Mom doesn't have any of that going on. Like she is not a person, only a nurturing creature, and of course she is overjoyed to be that. It's taken for granted that the mother will give up everything "selfish" in her life to care, care, care, but the father well...he still must build a career, pursue his dreams, live out his midlife crisis, do as he pleases! He needs to come home and "decompress!" His feelings matter, only he also gets to somehow claim at the same damn time that he is rational and logical and "not emotional." He can quit his job, have a beer, hit people. But if the mother is not utterly perfect at all times, oh shame, SHAME!
"It's not hard work when it's your own children!" Yeah? You the one who does most of it, or are you speaking on behalf of your wife? I'm not asking what she told you, what she says. I said those things, too.
Until I didn't.
It's work.
It's hard, brutal work. And massive self sacrifice. It is often not paid forward or paid back. For a lot of Moms, no one is there to refill our cups...everyone just assumes that ours are the wells that will never run dry.
All I can say is that when I became pregnant, the hormones made me crazy and blind. And that carried me forward for quite a while, and I suppose that men should be grateful to God or Nature or whatever, that such a thing is possible, because I really think that if that didn't happen, a whole lot of women would refuse the job.
Great post. Lots of truth here.
IMO, women/mothers get a crap deal. You’re selfish if you don’t have kids. You’re a neglectful mother if you have kids and work. If a divorce occurs after years of being a SAHM you’re accused of taking half “his” stuff. That’s why I think women should just do whatever the heck they deem is best for them. It’s a no win situation so you might as well get bashed for doing what you prefer.
IMO, women/mothers get a crap deal. You’re selfish if you don’t have kids. You’re a neglectful mother if you have kids and work. If a divorce occurs after years of being a SAHM you’re accused of taking half “his” stuff. That’s why I think women should just do whatever the heck they deem is best for them. It’s a no win situation so you might as well get bashed for doing what you prefer.
Always been true, hasn't it?
I think the realization that women get a raw deal is leading to the decline in numbers of the human race. I don't know that we will ever become extinct, but there will certainly be fewer of us as time goes on.
But it was always going to happen. A species where the female can only bear young for 20 years, and yet she lives 80? Yeah, once women become aware of the options the TFR drops - and fast.
IMO, women/mothers get a crap deal. You’re selfish if you don’t have kids. You’re a neglectful mother if you have kids and work. If a divorce occurs after years of being a SAHM you’re accused of taking half “his” stuff. That’s why I think women should just do whatever the heck they deem is best for them. It’s a no win situation so you might as well get bashed for doing what you prefer.
Must be careful in speaking in exaggerations. Never heard of a woman being called neglectful for having kids and a job. Most can't survive without this arraignment. Mothers are universally loved and adored. Think about all the loving tribute songs to mothers. How many songs are there for dads? Poppa was a rolling stone. It's not a no-win situation, unfortunately this narrative is starting to permeate our society. I simply ask the question, are women any happier not having kids? It wasn't until our economy transformed into primarily services oriented, and Air Conditioning became prolific did women desire to even work in mass. Procreating is a basic human desire. No number of pets, degrees, job titles or therapy will fill that void. Just saying.
Must be careful in speaking in exaggerations. Never heard of a woman being called neglectful for having kids and a job. Most can't survive without this arraignment. Mothers are universally loved and adored. Think about all the loving tribute songs to mothers. How many songs are there for dads? Poppa was a rolling stone. It's not a no-win situation, unfortunately this narrative is starting to permeate our society. I simply ask the question, are women any happier not having kids? It wasn't until our economy transformed into primarily services oriented, and Air Conditioning became prolific did women desire to even work in mass. Procreating is a basic human desire. No number of pets, degrees, job titles or therapy will fill that void. Just saying.
Read some books written in times gone by. A lot of women DID work, even before we think of them working or not working.
The whole "Mom at home" notion is a very specific class and kind of woman who did that. Or else the work to be done at home was much more, vastly more, than a "job."
Also? My grandmothers were not happier than I. One of them had seven children (who survived.) Abuse and alcoholism was prolific in her time, far more even than now. And it's not exactly rare, now.
Many women are happy who have children, yes.
Many women who never have children, also are happy.
I had children, and now they are grown. I would sooner kill myself than carry, birth, and try to raise another child. Not kidding even a little. I'm not 100% sure that I regret having the kids I did have, but if I could go back, I would choose differently. And I am far, FAR happier with them out of my home. I am not eagerly awaiting grandbabies. In fact if they never have kids I'll be thrilled.
Songs? Are you kidding me? Songs?
The father of my kids could do whatever he wanted or nothing at all. He abandoned his first two kids and convinced my 18 year old self that it was all his first wife's fault. I ended up having to pay off over $20K in back child support debt he owed to the state. But no one had anything to say against him. He never felt an ounce of shame.
Meanwhile I felt like there were giant cartoon judges lined up circling me ready to shake a finger of shame about everything and anything I did ever. I was supposed to give 100% to my job, my kids, the kids' school, my marriage (which was on me to make good, not him)...keep a perfect home, and everything that ever went wrong was triply my fault always. Yeah, "Mothers are loved!" so long as they do everything for everyone all the time. Which it will be taken for granted they will, and no one will stop demanding and draining, and when I die after my kids have grasped and grabbed everything they could, they will stand there over my grave talking about how great I was and yeah...that'll be such a comfort.
No way I would have preferred to, I dunno, have a million more of my hard earned dollars, less worry and stress, maybe travel the world. The child free women I know have great lives, and yeah, are very happy.
I used to tell myself that BS that being "selfish" could never be fulfilling. Hey, it got me through the years of deprivation and hardship. Amazing the things you tell yourself when the reality is you just don't feel like you have a choice.
The kicker? The part that really makes all this bitter vitriol boil in me? Is that it does not matter how wonderful and loving the mother is. It doesn't matter. It's the father who will determine how the kids turn out. No matter how loving or good or giving the mother is, if the father is bad the kids will be a mess. And it'll be her fault for choosing him. No blame, no guilt attaches to the man for anything.
But it's like...I read Sydney's account of raising kids on a farm in France. And it's like....wow...I mean...just, it's so wholesome I can almost smell the clean air and sunshine! Now THAT sounds like a happy life! But she's got a partner who loves and supports her, she's got what sounds like a seriously beautiful life and world to raise children in.
And that right there... Like the prospect of having and raising kids in a healthy and wholesome environment? Now THAT sounds good. Really good. Like apple pie and ice cream good.
The problem I think is that in modern society...maybe particularly in America, I don't know...is that we look around and there is so much that feels unhealthy and even threatening. Politics is a big one, right now, no matter which "side" you are on, we're getting hammered with the idea that the other one is a Big Existential Threat to our Way of Life. Like. Fear and outrage and sickness everywhere. School shootings, ffs!!! What crazy person wants to have children in a country that has school shootings going on? This is madness!
And I can't say it enough, if my sons were OK? If they were both doing alright as young adults, had decent jobs and prospects and healthy relationships and the ability to live like functional people? I would so quickly declare every sacrifice I ever made worth it. I'd have none of the anger, not a smidge of regret. At the end of the day I think what is vastly more powerful than the question of what life is like for a woman as a mother...is whether we can feel OK about the world our kids are coming into and what their lives are likely to be like. No mother feels particularly comfortable with the idea of watching her child suffer...I mean unless she's a psychopath or something.
And you know... At the end of the day, humans are smart and complicated but we're still animals.
You take any kind of animal and put it under stress and threat, make it think that resources are scarce and life is terrifying, and see what the results are for its reproductive behavior. I mean that is truly why creatures eat their young. Could be worse y'all! At least we don't do that.
Must be careful in speaking in exaggerations. Never heard of a woman being called neglectful for having kids and a job. Most can't survive without this arraignment. Mothers are universally loved and adored. Think about all the loving tribute songs to mothers. How many songs are there for dads? Poppa was a rolling stone. It's not a no-win situation, unfortunately this narrative is starting to permeate our society. I simply ask the question, are women any happier not having kids? It wasn't until our economy transformed into primarily services oriented, and Air Conditioning became prolific did women desire to even work in mass. Procreating is a basic human desire. No number of pets, degrees, job titles or therapy will fill that void. Just saying.
Happens all the time on C-D and IRL. A mother works and she gets slammed for having her kids in daycare since some believe that means her kids are “being raised by strangers”. No one slams working fathers. Just mothers.
I stand by what I said. It’s a no way to not get judged harshly situation whether a woman chooses no kids, kids and working or kids and stays home. Some people will have opinions on why she’s doing it wrong. That’s why women should do what they want. Might as well make yourself happy since others will disapprove of your choices regardless.
What if AI determines Humanity is still essential but determines that low Native Intelligence in humans is a drag on the environment within which AI makes the parametric rules?
What would it look like?
Would the big proponents of it like the result or not?
Would the general "Human Consumer Unit" like it?
Would it result in a technocracy? A meritocracy?
Cause and effect?
And who and what writes the "Prime Directive" logic for the society?
Has any organization started a compendium of "Cautionary tales" of AI?
As well as a dialogue on what off loading of human intelligence to 'enjoy' more freedom / leisure means to the human condition and psyche?
Thought of this when I saw Henry Kissinger, he of the famous "useless eaters" quote, recently celebrated his 100th birthday.
I would worry more about AI getting rid of intelligent people, the ones who would have the greatest chance to shut down or slow down the power of AI. Same as any dictatorship in the past, kill off the smart ones and force the rest into manual labor.
The global population will begin to shrink very soon, perhaps as soon as 10 years. And once it begins to decline, it will never stop declining. That's a fact, according to some demographers. They make a pretty compelling case for the ever-shrinking human population in the book Empty Planet: The Shock of Global Population Decline. Their case, in simple terms, revolves around the emancipation of women and urbanization. It's more complicated than that, though, so interested parties should read the book or some of the many articles written about the subject.
Many countries are already on the decline and many more will join. Some governments will collapse - I mean cease to exist! There simply will not be enough people living in Bulgaria (to pick one) to support a government. Italy has noted that it is a dying country already.
So what will the world be like in 100 years? IN 2200, it is projected that the world will have about the same population as we do today, but the population will be much older. And old people (I am one) are not productive. We become a burden on our countries....
I suppose the idea that the population will be older and that older people are not productive is relative to what you consider "older" and maybe the expectation that the younger generations will not survive as easily as the older generations (seems likely since we have such dumbing down in education, and addictions to electronic devises at an early age, lack of common sense, and critical thinking not being taught anymore as well as survival skills).
I don't buy it any more than I buy the idea that the world is currently overpopulated.
I would worry more about AI getting rid of intelligent people, the ones who would have the greatest chance to shut down or slow down the power of AI. Same as any dictatorship in the past, kill off the smart ones and force the rest into manual labor.
There are so many things we can choose to worry about but why waste the mental and emotional energy?
Must be careful in speaking in exaggerations. Never heard of a woman being called neglectful for having kids and a job. Most can't survive without this arraignment. Mothers are universally loved and adored. Think about all the loving tribute songs to mothers. How many songs are there for dads? Poppa was a rolling stone. It's not a no-win situation, unfortunately this narrative is starting to permeate our society. I simply ask the question, are women any happier not having kids? It wasn't until our economy transformed into primarily services oriented, and Air Conditioning became prolific did women desire to even work in mass. Procreating is a basic human desire. No number of pets, degrees, job titles or therapy will fill that void. Just saying.
Good lord! What planet do you live on? Women have had to work to feed their children and keep a roof over their heads since families existed. It is just a modern misconception (last 200 years ONLY in the 1st world countries) that women should sit home and knit and raise children and be taken care of by a man. Many women are happy without children and even very happy with out a man they have to cater to, many are happy with children and working, currently even married women (unless they are married to a rich man) have to work to make ends meet or keep the lifestyle they want. And the void you speak of is in your imagination. yes some women who can't have children feel like they are missing something, but they could have it by adopting a child that has no family, void filled. You can't second guess anyone else's choices and make stuff up about how they must be miserable because they are making choices outside of your comfort zone.
Read some books written in times gone by. A lot of women DID work, even before we think of them working or not working.
The whole "Mom at home" notion is a very specific class and kind of woman who did that. Or else the work to be done at home was much more, vastly more, than a "job."
Also? My grandmothers were not happier than I. One of them had seven children (who survived.) Abuse and alcoholism was prolific in her time, far more even than now. And it's not exactly rare, now.
Many women are happy who have children, yes.
Many women who never have children, also are happy.
I had children, and now they are grown. I would sooner kill myself than carry, birth, and try to raise another child. Not kidding even a little. I'm not 100% sure that I regret having the kids I did have, but if I could go back, I would choose differently. And I am far, FAR happier with them out of my home. I am not eagerly awaiting grandbabies. In fact if they never have kids I'll be thrilled.
Songs? Are you kidding me? Songs?
The father of my kids could do whatever he wanted or nothing at all. He abandoned his first two kids and convinced my 18 year old self that it was all his first wife's fault. I ended up having to pay off over $20K in back child support debt he owed to the state. But no one had anything to say against him. He never felt an ounce of shame.
Meanwhile I felt like there were giant cartoon judges lined up circling me ready to shake a finger of shame about everything and anything I did ever. I was supposed to give 100% to my job, my kids, the kids' school, my marriage (which was on me to make good, not him)...keep a perfect home, and everything that ever went wrong was triply my fault always. Yeah, "Mothers are loved!" so long as they do everything for everyone all the time. Which it will be taken for granted they will, and no one will stop demanding and draining, and when I die after my kids have grasped and grabbed everything they could, they will stand there over my grave talking about how great I was and yeah...that'll be such a comfort.
No way I would have preferred to, I dunno, have a million more of my hard earned dollars, less worry and stress, maybe travel the world. The child free women I know have great lives, and yeah, are very happy.
I used to tell myself that BS that being "selfish" could never be fulfilling. Hey, it got me through the years of deprivation and hardship. Amazing the things you tell yourself when the reality is you just don't feel like you have a choice.
The kicker? The part that really makes all this bitter vitriol boil in me? Is that it does not matter how wonderful and loving the mother is. It doesn't matter. It's the father who will determine how the kids turn out. No matter how loving or good or giving the mother is, if the father is bad the kids will be a mess. And it'll be her fault for choosing him. No blame, no guilt attaches to the man for anything.
But it's like...I read Sydney's account of raising kids on a farm in France. And it's like....wow...I mean...just, it's so wholesome I can almost smell the clean air and sunshine! Now THAT sounds like a happy life! But she's got a partner who loves and supports her, she's got what sounds like a seriously beautiful life and world to raise children in.
And that right there... Like the prospect of having and raising kids in a healthy and wholesome environment? Now THAT sounds good. Really good. Like apple pie and ice cream good.
The problem I think is that in modern society...maybe particularly in America, I don't know...is that we look around and there is so much that feels unhealthy and even threatening. Politics is a big one, right now, no matter which "side" you are on, we're getting hammered with the idea that the other one is a Big Existential Threat to our Way of Life. Like. Fear and outrage and sickness everywhere. School shootings, ffs!!! What crazy person wants to have children in a country that has school shootings going on? This is madness!
And I can't say it enough, if my sons were OK? If they were both doing alright as young adults, had decent jobs and prospects and healthy relationships and the ability to live like functional people? I would so quickly declare every sacrifice I ever made worth it. I'd have none of the anger, not a smidge of regret. At the end of the day I think what is vastly more powerful than the question of what life is like for a woman as a mother...is whether we can feel OK about the world our kids are coming into and what their lives are likely to be like. No mother feels particularly comfortable with the idea of watching her child suffer...I mean unless she's a psychopath or something.
And you know... At the end of the day, humans are smart and complicated but we're still animals.
You take any kind of animal and put it under stress and threat, make it think that resources are scarce and life is terrifying, and see what the results are for its reproductive behavior. I mean that is truly why creatures eat their young. Could be worse y'all! At least we don't do that.
You make some good points and your experiences are common. I grew up being told I was wrong for being female, I married a useless git who abanond me and 2 daughters, then lied about having daughters to his nex t 2 wives. And on and on I could go, but I won't. I did have support from my mother in spite of my dad, who had become quite insane and believed everyone was after his money (as if, he didn't have that much money). Anyway, both my grandmothers worked and raised their children, there was no such thing for staying home with the kids in the 30's and 40's unless you were married to a rich man or you were married to a rancher, then you stayed home and helped with the ranch work (same for farmers). Later, when the U.S. became a country of middle class families the ideas were that women stay home and do what their husbands tell them. Women couldn't even have a bank account in their own name until the 70's, a husband or brother or father had to be on the account, unless the woman was a widow with no male relatives.
I raised my kids on my own and worked, I did get some help from family (childcare by my sister, who was married to a farmer - good for the kids because they had to work on the farm - everyone does in a farm family). But there was nothing from their dad until they were grown. (and that reprobate is dating his future wife number 9).
As for being bitter, I got over it. My kids are grown and have beautiful children of their own, both are doing well so it was well worth it for me. One is happily married and the other, like me, made some bad choices (my sister says our "picker" is broken).
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