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Soviet style Communism i.e. Cuba, Venezuela, or Nicaragua...almost NEVER works. It's pretty hard to dispute that...
But Socialism in free societies i.e. Nordic Countries, New Zealand and Canada, to some extent, works very well for the people therein. Whether or not it could work in a country as large as the US will *always* be a never ending debate.
But those arent socialist systems. They're all very pro capitalist, free market, business friendly economies. They just have more generous social safety net programs and higher taxes.
Capitalism (and specifically, generally free markets) has lifted more people out of poverty than any government or market system in the history of the planet. And it isn't close.
Capitalism is the natural way of the world. We are self-interested beings, just like all other animals on the planet. It is only natural for an economic system to reflect these values. The fact that it has lifted billions out of poverty is not surprising.
Very true. Capitalism is the only system capable of the dynamism and diversity required to rapidly lift billions out of poverty, as well as to spur rapid technological innovation.
But those arent socialist systems. They're all very pro capitalist, free market, business friendly economies. They just have more generous social safety net programs and higher taxes.
Agreed. I don't know about Canada, but Sweden is very free-market. It has low corporate taxes and its versions of the Post Office and Amtrak are privatized (although perhaps with some type of continuing public support).
Agreed. I don't know about Canada, but Sweden is very free-market. It has low corporate taxes and its versions of the Post Office and Amtrak are privatized (although perhaps with some type of continuing public support).
Most European countries that we think of as "socialist", including Sweden, are more of a throwback to the corporatist or guild system. These countries never had true "capitalism" in the Ben Franklin era sense of the word. In the American colonies, people apprenticed to be a printer, maker of cutlery (one of Ben Franklin's possibilities that didn't happen), cooper, or other trade and then went into the trade themselves or in combination with others. Europe, with the partial exception of England (but not Scotland) was never capitalist in the sense of atomistic businesses.
Also, the Church, and in non-Catholic areas similar mechanisms, heavily regulated what people could do. One of the reasons for Jews' relative success was that they were the first example of deregulation. Their non-Jewish competitors did not find that enjoyable.
But I digress. One of the reasons that Communism and its more gentle sister socialism found an audience in Europe was that their system was already pretty close to it. Socialism is corporatist wine in new bottles.
Most European countries that we think of as "socialist", including Sweden, are more of a throwback to the corporatist or guild system. These countries never had true "capitalism" in the Ben Franklin era sense of the word. In the American colonies, people apprenticed to be a printer, maker of cutlery (one of Ben Franklin's possibilities that didn't happen), cooper, or other trade and then went into the trade themselves or in combination with others. Europe, with the partial exception of England (but not Scotland) was never capitalist in the sense of atomistic businesses.
Also, the Church, and in non-Catholic areas similar mechanisms, heavily regulated what people could do. One of the reasons for Jews' relative success was that they were the first example of deregulation. Their non-Jewish competitors did not find that enjoyable.
But I digress. One of the reasons that Communism and its more gentle sister socialism found an audience in Europe was that their system was already pretty close to it. Socialism is corporatist wine in new bottles.
1: Few, if any, present-day European countries consider themselves socialist, no matter what some Americans may think.
2:Color me confused. Can you elaborate on that? Particularly the difference between England and Scotland.
3: If that were the case, why the October revolution?
1: Few, if any, present-day European countries consider themselves socialist, no matter what some Americans may think.
Then why party names such as Labour and SPD? Why cradle-to-grave social welfare?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Very Man Himself
2:Color me confused. Can you elaborate on that? Particularly the difference between England and Scotland.
Scotland just never had the entrepreneurial culture. Their entrepreneurial types did exist and they now live mostly in the U.S. and Canada.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Very Man Himself
3: If that were the case, why the October revolution?
Not sure what you are referring to but basically the October Revolution was Czarist wine in Marxist/Leninist bottles. Basically just new nomenclature. Complete with a new name for the secret police, Cheka, then NKVD, then KGB.
Then why party names such as Labour and SPD? Why cradle-to-grave social welfare?
Scotland just never had the entrepreneurial culture. Their entrepreneurial types did exist and they now live mostly in the U.S. and Canada.
Not sure what you are referring to but basically the October Revolution was Czarist wine in Marxist/Leninist bottles. Basically just new nomenclature. Complete with a new name for the secret police, Cheka, then NKVD, then KGB.
Because they are "inclusive" terms. Politics is a game of addition, not subtraction. Labour mostly only has success when it moves to the center. Contrast Corbin and Blair. SPD has never formed a government on its own. Currently at 25%.
Attempting to delegitimize that with which you disagree serves only to undermine your own position. The US is moving toward not away from more social welfare because it has been shown to work without the sky falling.
There was just as much capitalism per capita in Europe (maybe more) as in America in Ben Franklin's day.
Didn't really emerge until after the civil war, and the arrival of rail, and was easier to do in the US than in Europe because it had less need to replace an existing system.*The industrial revolution hadn't yet completely wiped out the old medieval guilds, particularly the merchant guilds that wielded a lot of oligopoly economic power.
Just because you think you can find some similarities between pre and post-revolution (with which I disagree), doesn't mean that there aren't also significant differences.
But those arent socialist systems. They're all very pro capitalist, free market, business friendly economies. They just have more generous social safety net programs and higher taxes.
What I see a lot of is that those who are looking for a society like say the Nordic Countries, with a generous social safety net, are then label as being a Socialist, hence why threads like these are being made.
In other words they get labeled as wanting Communism when what they're looking for is a system more like Scandinavia.
For communism to work, the communists involved would have to be of such outstanding character that the communism itself wouldn't be necessary. Utopia would emerge just naturally in a society of such people. It wouldn't even need a government.
I think on paper communism is great stuff. In the real world with real people ... it stinks.
Capitalism with better when it is sprinkled with socialism ideas. Socialism without limits is as bad as capitalism without limits. Dog eat dog and fair meaning equal just isn't the best we can do.
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