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For communism to work, the communists involved would have to be of such outstanding character that the communism itself wouldn't be necessary. Utopia would emerge just naturally in a society of such people. It wouldn't even need a government.
And the state dissolves, since all the proletariat of the world want the same thing. </sarcasm>
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle
I think on paper communism is great stuff. In the real world with real people ... it stinks.
Capitalism with better when it is sprinkled with socialism ideas. Socialism without limits is as bad as capitalism without limits. Dog eat dog and fair meaning equal just isn't the best we can do.
Communism and socialism work great in a university lecture hall and nowhere else. The professors can grade eloquently written papers by students who graduated honors from the best high schools. It is quite easy to posit, on paper (or a computer file as it's probably done these days) that everyone knows that they need to work up to the level of their ability. That means these honors students, when they graduate to the real world, understand that they are producing whatever they produce or service for the benefit not only of themselves but the world, from their next door neighbors to people living in desperately poor and politically unstable countries. On paper, the people who really can't produce or service much of anything would limit their desires to their necessities, and would not self-aggrandize. People in a position of control, from Boss Tweed to Emperor Bokassa, see The Central African Republic, where Emperor Bokassa ruled ..., would not take advantage of being given the keys to the treasury. Ditto Fidel and Raoul Castro of Cuba.
1 often capitalized : a place of ideal perfection especially in laws, government, and social conditions
2 : an impractical scheme for social improvement
3 : an imaginary and indefinitely remote place
Socialism and communism are no more practical. Even the next closest thing, Woodstock, which happened almost exactly 52 years ago, lasted only three days and was not as marvelous as billed.
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
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As far as 'Chinese' Communism, we also overlook the tremendous importance of the local 'culture' (aka, "Over 5,000 Years Old!")... and China often has a totally different history and relationship with the notion of 'gubmint' and the 'collective' to begin with.
In the United States, we value things like freedom and individuality. But Chinese culture is very different. Over there, individuality is probably seen as strange and even dangerous. After studying Asian philosophy as an undergraduate, I have learned that Chinese culture, in particular, places a lot of value on the good of the group.
This group can be the family unit, the workplace or society as a whole. In America, we like to showcase one particular person’s experiences rather than the groups and we do not often talk about America as the diverse mix of experiences that it is.
As far as 'Chinese' Communism, we also overlook the tremendous importance of the local 'culture' (aka, "Over 5,000 Years Old!")... and China often has a totally different history and relationship with the notion of 'gubmint' and the 'collective' to begin with.
In the United States, we value things like freedom and individuality. But Chinese culture is very different. Over there, individuality is probably seen as strange and even dangerous. After studying Asian philosophy as an undergraduate, I have learned that Chinese culture, in particular, places a lot of value on the good of the group.
This group can be the family unit, the workplace or society as a whole. In America, we like to showcase one particular person’s experiences rather than the groups and we do not often talk about America as the diverse mix of experiences that it is.
Those cultural attributes are the same as Japan, South Korea and Taiwan. All democratic and capitalist
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
Those cultural attributes are the same as Japan, South Korea and Taiwan. All democratic and capitalist
Besides 'yuge' differences in size, they each have very different histories, religions, rivalries, and even different, and not always great, 'relationships' w/ the West for them to 'draw on'. Point being, the role of local 'culture' is at least as important as 'ideology' in such an enormous country, with 56 different ethnic groups, and where a proud, 'collective' sense of Culture is often the only thing that really holds 'em all together.
And BTW, I should think that any 'Murikin folks who are also big on 'Identity Politics' would understand the importance of that better'n anyone?!
As far as 'Chinese' Communism, we also overlook the tremendous importance of the local 'culture' (aka, "Over 5,000 Years Old!")... and China often has a totally different history and relationship with the notion of 'gubmint' and the 'collective' to begin with.
I respect their differences. That doesn't mean we have to let them bully us or we have to subsidize them.
Building artificial land in the South China Sea to impinge on the sovereignty of others or international waters I consider to be bullying. Same with cyber-terrorism and currency manipulation. If they want to "go hermit" fine; we shouldn't stop them.
Besides 'yuge' differences in size, they each have very different histories, religions, rivalries, and even different, and not always great, 'relationships' w/ the West for them to 'draw on'. Point being, the role of local 'culture' is at least as important as 'ideology' in such an enormous country, with 56 different ethnic groups, and where a proud, 'collective' sense of Culture is often the only thing that really holds 'em all together.
And BTW, I should think that any 'Murikin folks who are also big on 'Identity Politics' would understand the importance of that better'n anyone?!
The only thing standing between China and effective democracy is the self interest of the CCP. Not culture, or tradition, or size, or any of the other bs that government spins to justify its authoritarian rule.
The only thing standing between China and effective democracy is the self interest of the CCP. Not culture, or tradition, or size, or any of the other bs that government spins to justify its authoritarian rule.
China has no civil system to speak of. This means a tradition of taking disputes inside and rationally debating them. Even in Taiwan there are fistfights in Parliament. Of course, the CCP is not allowing an evolution to democracy.
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
The only thing standing between China and effective democracy is the self interest of the CCP. Not culture, or tradition, or size, or any of the other bs that government spins to justify its authoritarian rule.
'Wingers miss the point... some folks don't necessarily want someone else's form of gubmint (i.e., 'exporting democracy') anymore than we do... even if it's a so-called 'better' one.
BTW, anyone wanna 'import' a little European-style 'Democratic Socialism'.....anyone (lol)?!
The only thing standing between China and effective democracy is the self interest of the CCP. Not culture, or tradition, or size, or any of the other bs that government spins to justify its authoritarian rule.
'Wingers miss the point... some folks don't necessarily want someone else's form of gubmint (i.e., 'exporting democracy') anymore than we do... even if it's a so-called 'better' one.
BTW, anyone wanna 'import' a little European-style 'Democratic Socialism'.....anyone (lol)?!
I think you're right but here is the "devil's advocate" argument; we wind up with other countries' export of people when those countries have a stultifying at best, tyrannical and murderous system of "government."
'Wingers miss the point... some folks don't necessarily want someone else's form of gubmint (i.e., 'exporting democracy') anymore than we do... even if it's a so-called 'better' one.
BTW, anyone wanna 'import' a little European-style 'Democratic Socialism'.....anyone (lol)?!
Oh i'm pretty certain that the Chinese people privately want a democratic form of govt. And if they had the option to choose between the two, they would choose democracy over CCP rule. Which is why they arent given the choice.
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