Is a Return to Colonialism Needed - Afghanistan and Haiti Events Sure Make it Seem So (border, independence)
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Or economic pressure. The Soviet is able to exert economic pressure through oil and gas policies, China through economic policies.
True. And when our previous Administration attempted to exert economic pressure on China in the form of trade wars, it hurt us more than it hurt China. However, the U.S. is very proud of its military might, and we have a lot of war-mongers in this country (as we see on a daily basis with how eager our citizens are to go to war with each other). With such in mind, I only hope that neither Russia nor China attempts to pull a feather from the eagle's tail.
If Russia and China were to decide to team up to "flatten" the U.S., I imagine that nuclear weapons would be involved in that flattening. The U.S. would respond with equal nuclear retaliation. The result would be an irradiated planet, nuclear winter, and a remaining population of survivors who would view the dead as having been the lucky ones. I would hope that the superpowers of the world continually keep the reality of mutual annihilation in mind as a check against any thoughts of starting WW III.
I'm not saying this to justify the comparative safety of a powerful nation's reining in of a much weaker and less stable nation, but I nevertheless can understand the reasoning behind it. For all we know, someday the leadership of one of those weaker, less stable nations with a fierce and passionately theocratic antipathy towards Western culture may gain control of a nuclear device and decide to use it against us or against one of our allies. At which time, it will be too late for us to be thinking: "Well, we should've seen that coming."
All that is true, and I'm glad you pointed it out.
But that doesn't change what I'm saying. Does the end justify the means? Is that the principle we need to operate on. Remember, going back to the post I responded to -- the other poster suggested that if a terrorist of a few terrorists struck us again, then we should "flatten" them. Really? Is that the way America works. Kill 38 million people with a nuke because of a couple of terrorists? I'm not suggesting that nothing be done, but is it necessary to "flatten" an entire nation?
It's my view that when we no longer act morally, when we no longer act ethicallythat's when we've really lost the battle.
All that is true, and I'm glad you pointed it out.
But that doesn't change what I'm saying. Does the end justify the means? Is that the principle we need to operate on. Remember, going back to the post I responded to -- the other poster suggested that if a terrorist of a few terrorists struck us again, then we should "flatten" them. Really? Is that the way America works. Kill 38 million people with a nuke because of a couple of terrorists? I'm not suggesting that nothing be done, but is it necessary to "flatten" an entire nation?
It's my view that when we no longer act morally, when we no longer act ethicallythat's when we've really lost the battle.
I don't imagine that the previous poster's use of the words "flatten them" meant "nuke them." I do think, though, that if major superpower nations were to get into a real war, that's when nukes would be used -- and I fervently hope and pray that nations not resort to that.
I don't believe in blaming an entire nation for the actions of some terrorists coming out of that nation. UNLESS, those terrorists have the backing of their nation's leadership. In which case, a surgical strike could be employed against the leadership, in order to spare as many of the civilian population as one can.
Unfortunately, nations have always been held responsible for the errors of their leaders.
I don't imagine that the previous poster's use of the words "flatten them" meant "nuke them." I do think, though, that if major superpower nations were to get into a real war, that's when nukes would be used -- and I fervently hope and pray that nations not resort to that.
I don't believe in blaming an entire nation for the actions of some terrorists coming out of that nation. UNLESS, those terrorists have the backing of their nation's leadership. In which case, a surgical strike could be employed against the leadership, in order to spare as many of the civilian population as one can.
Unfortunately, nations have always been held responsible for the errors of their leaders.
Here's the quote from the other poster: "I agree that we shouldn't have occupied Afghanistan. We should flatten it if any harm comes to the West again from that country." (I added the underlining).
Saying that we should flatten Afghanistan is tempting as sour grapes. Surgical strikes, as you mention...fair game.
Here's the quote from the other poster: "I agree that we shouldn't have occupied Afghanistan. We should flatten it if any harm comes to the West again from that country." (I added the underlining).
Saying that we should flatten Afghanistan is tempting as sour grapes. Surgical strikes, as you mention...fair game.
I am not sure what device we would use to "flatten" them, or maybe that's a poor choice of words. I think the apathetic people of these countries with misguided leaders should understand that their misery will only deepen and that their leadership is not taking them on a trip to utopia. We don't need to wear the hairshirt for our sinfulness; someone else, not us, needs to suffer.
Last edited by Rachel NewYork; 08-31-2021 at 08:37 PM..
Reason: Fixed error in quote post.
I am not sure what device we would use to "flatten" them, or maybe that's a poor choice of words. I think the apathetic people of these countries with misguided leaders should understand that their misery will only deepen and that their leadership is not taking them on a trip to utopia. We don't need to wear the hairshirt for our sinfulness; someone else, not us, needs to suffer.
If by “apathetic,” you mean that most of the people in the country are teens or younger with no say in how anything is run, I guess that is one way to think about it. The median age in Afghanistan is something like 18 years old. Of the adult group, a lot are women who by and large were not able to get any sort of education until recently. I never agreed with going into Afghanistan in the first place, but when you realize how young the country is, it is easy to see why young men are so easily influenced.
If by “apathetic,” you mean that most of the people in the country are teens or younger with no say in how anything is run, I guess that is one way to think about it. The median age in Afghanistan is something like 18 years old. Of the adult group, a lot are women who by and large were not able to get any sort of education until recently. I never agreed with going into Afghanistan in the first place, but when you realize how young the country is, it is easy to see why young men are so easily influenced.
What I am saying is that the people of these countries need to find a way to rebel against insufferable conditions. The United States and other modern Western countries can simply not absorb the waves of misery emanating from all of these dystopian lands. I read a heartbreaking story of a family that walked from Afghanistan through Iran to Turkey and was turned back at the border. While there is nothing sympathetic about Erdogen, Turkey's dictator, I can understand that they are not a wealthy country. No country in the world can afford to take in a lot of unskilled, virtually illiterate immigrants with no skills relevant to a 20th Century much less a 21th Century economy.
The protocols on refugee status is that the emigre needs to have reasonable fear of persecution. It is not designed for people fleeing economic distress. People in these countries, then, largely need to take matters into their own hands. The rest of the world cannot be the ones to have a problem. One of the arguments for a return to colonial rule is that the leaders want to show both sides of the coin; they want Western aid, and the right to use, or squander, it as they please.
The premise of this thread is that the leaders of these countries cannot have it both ways. I know the ordinary people are caught in the "crossfire." But if we aid these countries, the people generally do not receive the benefit. At some point, the apathy of the ordinary people is "on them."
Haiti? What’s your plan? To make them play billions more to the U.S. like they paid the equivalent of billions in reparations to their slave owners (France) and make them even more poor? Rather than demand France return the money they extorted, the only thing you people are looking for with Haiti is to take more of the little they have and do to them what France did. Disgusting.
Afghanistan? You people don’t learn at all do you? You are trying to send more young Americans (and others) to die alongside innocent Afghan people.
The people of these countries don't lift a finger:
To create a real economy;
To create a decent government;
To create a civil society; and/or
To build or construct anything.
At best, they leave us alone and we leave them alone. If we give aid, the likelihood is it will wind up in Swiss bank accounts. The surgical term for that is "capital flight." After years and years of helping them we owe them nothing.
The people of these countries don't lift a finger:
To create a real economy;
To create a decent government;
To create a civil society; and/or
To build or construct anything.
At best, they leave us alone and we leave them alone. If we give aid, the likelihood is it will wind up in Swiss bank accounts. The surgical term for that is "capital flight." After years and years of helping them we owe them nothing.
On this I agree with you.
We were there (in Afghanistan) for 20 years, holding down the radicals. Time to begin doing all those things that you mentioned above. And it 3 days it all dissolved. I don't have much sympathy for them.
We were there (in Afghanistan) for 20 years, holding down the radicals. Time to begin doing all those things that you mentioned above. And it 3 days it all dissolved. I don't have much sympathy for them.
We basically agree.
But as sure as the sun has rise about an hour ago, there will be some widely broadcast "humanitarian crisis" in both countries within a very short period of time. Granted, it will be very real since these countries don't sustain themselves and war and earthquakes, respectively, do create suffering. The aid posters will be on every street corner for all to see. They will scream: 1) Aid the Afghanistan war victims! (or if they have a natural disaster substitute that); or 2) Aid the Hait Earthquake victims! The pictures may include distended bellies of children or hospital scenes of carnage for good measure. Everyone on our side of the world who donates will be well-intentioned. The money, sadly, won't reach the victims.
I had my first less in that with the Pakistan civil war that birthed Bangladesh. I saked for and got for a holiday season present during 1971 the three-disk "Concert for Bangladesh" album, which cost about $14, or about $70 in today's money. Mind you it's a great album on it's own merits and I still listen to the vinyl in my house and the ripped MP3's in the car. I read in the NY Times some months later that pretty much all of the proceeds went to the recording industry and a trickle to international aid groups. Most of that money in turn went to what passed for a "government." As a naive 14 year old at the time I was very sad. In a way I felt cheated even though it was Mommy and Daddy's money.
I don't regret having the album bought for me but I learned a lesson in the ways of the world. Sadly, I think we would repeat that 1971-2 lesson with any celebrity galas or bashes for these victims.
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