We'll never go to Mars (independent, companies, cost, government)
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Some good thoughts!
I'll ease up a little and give a nod without agreeing to those who believe we may visit, but hold fast alongside those who believe there will never be a colony.
Regarding colonization of Mars - only if someone discovers unobtanium there. Elon Musk says he wants to die on Mars - he may wind up establishing the 21st century version of Roanoke.
Looking Earthward, Europeans colonized the Americas because there was gold there. Then they colonized other parts of the continent because someone brought tobacco back to Europe. After that, it was furs, then sugar cane. Colonization follows profits.
I find it more likely that someone finds one or more asteroids made up of an immense amount of rare earth metal ores and can work the numbers to wrangle a profit from it.
Don't extrapolate the paradigm of the colonization of N Am 500 yrs ago with the problem of going to Mars.
Europeans left oak & maple forersts and grass meadows in Europe for a two month voyage and found oak & maple forests and grass meadows on arrival in the New World. They could grow their own food & hunt, just like they did in Europe and use wood for fires, just like they did in Europe....
...Mars pioneers will have to bring everything they need for survival with them (in fact TWO of everything, because it's a two year trip if something fails sand needs to be replaced)...They will have no source of fuel or water...
Sure, we could hope for new tech that will solve those problems, but it's just as probable that large scale mutations in H.sapiens will allow us to sprout wings and just fly there in the mean time....
Don't base plans on hopes for non-existant tech.
And the question still remains Why spend the money for an endeavor that won't bring any benefit?
We'll never go live on Mars. Not ever.
Proponents and promoters speak of the need to colonize planets in order to reduce congestion here on earth. They tell us we could live underground, or in specially built facilities. They say children will be born on Mars.
It's nonsense. We will never live on a planet where venturing outside would mean certain death. Mars is a place where our bodies would rapidly deteriorate first from the lower gravity and second from the constant bombardment of deadly rays generated by the sun.
Scientists know this. But they want "research money" so they promote this fantasy.
You want to live in someplace harsh because earth is too crowded?..... Consider the far north. There is room on every continent that reaches into the arctic. Just pick a spot and colonize - Iceland; Greenland; Canada. Or go south to the Antarctic. Or go underwater if you want a real challenge.
Each of those are infinitely cheaper than going to mars. You could go outside and survive and babies could be born. And if you get tired of it you can go home.
Mars?..... Nah. Never.
But I'd be interested in your take.
Well you are actually making an argument that given more or less current technology, humans won't *colonize* Mars. And I think you make a pretty good argument. Of course given current technology. Given maybe fusion energy being made practical, which has been 10 years away for at least 50 years, might help. Weak gravity could be compensated for in a gym various ways. The radiation problem is more daunting.
The question of a brief exploratory visit, such as has been done to the Moon, is a different one. That is daunting enough and would probably have relatively severe health effects on astronauts making the trip.
I'm not sure spending *some* money on research on topics where an immediate practical application is not available is the same as wasting money. To paraphrase Edison when he was close but not quite there with a practical light bulb: "I have not wasted my time, I now know over 100 materials that *won't* work for a light bulb filament!"
Maybe you should ask a mod to edit your thread title.
If we dont go to Mars and colonize the planet or other planets, it wont be due to lack of knowledge( science always advances). It wont be due to money. Man has always found the means to explore. It will be due to the lack of an imagination and not wanting to take risks.
Don't extrapolate the paradigm of the colonization of N Am 500 yrs ago with the problem of going to Mars.
Yes, not exactly a direct comparison, but I was pointing out the economics driving colonization.
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Europeans left oak & maple forersts and grass meadows in Europe for a two month voyage and found oak & maple forests and grass meadows on arrival in the New World. They could grow their own food & hunt, just like they did in Europe and use wood for fires, just like they did in Europe....
Regarding growing food on Mars, scientists are already growing plants in regolith (Moon dirt brought back by Apollo missions).
Prior to legalization, people were growing marijuana in their basements with electric lighting. Growing food underground on the Moon or on Mars isn't such a leap of technology.
Growing food on other planets can be done, albeit with technology that will need to be brought along. Meat, on the other hand, might not be possible.
Quote:
...Mars pioneers will have to bring everything they need for survival with them (in fact TWO of everything, because it's a two year trip if something fails sand needs to be replaced)...They will have no source of fuel or water...
Fuel? No, but electricity from solar and small nuclear power plants will replace combustible fuel.
There's water both on the Moon and on Mars. It won't be as easy to get to as on Earth, but it's there.
Printable parts reduces the need for bringing spares of everything. Just need to bring the raw material, a few printers, and the software. They're already doing this on the ISS.
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Sure, we could hope for new tech that will solve those problems, but it's just as probable that large scale mutations in H.sapiens will allow us to sprout wings and just fly there in the mean time....
Don't base plans on hopes for non-existant tech.
And the question still remains Why spend the money for an endeavor that won't bring any benefit?
That circles back to my point that colonization usually requires an economic justification.
The Pilgrims of Plymouth Colony were religious separatists seeking to establish a new society based upon their faith. They were still required to obtain and ship furs, fish, and lumber back to their parent company in England.
Right now, there's nothing on Mars that anyone on Earth needs or wants.
We'll never go live on Mars. Not ever.
Proponents and promoters speak of the need to colonize planets in order to reduce congestion here on earth. They tell us we could live underground, or in specially built facilities. They say children will be born on Mars.
It's nonsense. We will never live on a planet where venturing outside would mean certain death. Mars is a place where our bodies would rapidly deteriorate first from the lower gravity and second from the constant bombardment of deadly rays generated by the sun.
I tend to agree There's no reason to go to extraordinary expense to colonize a "planet where venturing outside means certain death." Such a life would not be satisfying.
The idea of outer-space travel and living have fascinated man from time immemorial. The video posted below is Ralph McTell's take. Ralph McTell is really known for his lovely song "Streets of London" but this song is worth a listen.
Two things. Never call Mars a colony and never wonder if man has a place in space and its planets, moons and asteroids.
... Man in Space
I get it. Born and raised on old mother Earth, its difficult to imagine that there is another way of living.
What is more difficult to imagine is how our future space bound pioneers will find it impossible to imagine life on Earth.
Based upon our current technology, it's a one way trip. Earth's gravity will be a killer; Earth's pathogens more so.
Should these problems be over come, how do you give up your blood, sweat and efforts to build a life there and return to what Earth will become? Would you fit in?
Man manipulates resources. There are infinitely more resources out there.
Think of Mars as just a stop on a much greater journey.
I don't doubt that we will eventually send someone to plant footprints on Mars -- our human ego is too large not to do so even though it is a pointless endeavor. The rovers and robots are doing more than we could ever accomplish in learning about the place. I do not expect us to try to establish a colony there. We don't have the will or capital to even build something as huge as the Panama Canal or Hoover Dam anymore so I can't imagine us truly devoting the funds to establish and support a colony on another planet. Our own planet and environment need us to get serious about conservation and resource protection. Our greatest challenge is here on Earth rather than frittering away our time and resources going to another planet for a couple years.
It is interesting to see the possibly livable exoplanet discoveries, but the distances are much too far to consider visiting or colonizing. If we had launched a spacecraft toward the center of the Milky Way, our own galaxy, about 25,000 years ago and traveling at the speed of light, it would just now be approaching the center of our galaxy.
Isn't the space station surrounded by a harsh and deadly environment ... yet people have lived on the space station for a year or more.
I disagree with the premise. For each of the items listed - weak gravity, harsh environment, radiation, expensive, etc... man will conquer each one. It's short-sighted to say we can't now defeat these things............
The question is, "why would we"?
There are many areas of planet earth that have problems that have never been solved - because it doesn't make sense to people to solve them.
I don't think anyone is saying it can't be done as much as we are saying it won't be done. For example, there will never be a need to colonize the ocean bottom although it certainly could be done. There is no permanent human habitation in Antarctica, and that could certainly be done. No one wants to.
The space station is resupplied every three months; it appears overhead every 90 minutes. Mars and earth arrive at their closest point every 26 months. And sometimes mars and earth are on different sides of the sun, so you can't just send up a shuttle any time you want. 'Inconvenient' and 'expensive' do not even begin to describe the obstacles.
As it is today you can almost ride along with the mars rover. We can even tune in and listen to the wind blow on mars. The pictures are wonderful.
There was even a company taking people's money for the "trip to mars" in 2024. They are broke now. People lost their money. The "going to mars" industry is doing well; the "been there are back" industry is still promising to retrieve samples from mars in the 2030's.
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Two things. Never call Mars a colony and never wonder if man has a place in space and its planets, moons and asteroids.
