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Then why did the Aztecs, Mayans, and Iroquois not develop into a more advanced Civilization that can compete against the Colonials?
China was not that isolated actually. They did not get hit hard by disease when Euros came. In fact a lot of the plagues Euros suffered during the Middle Ages came from East, like the Black Plague.
The Chinese had contact with Persia, and India. There is even some suggesting, the Romans sent an envoy via the India Ocean through the Straits of Malacca up to China. The Byzantines reached China. The Chinese and Arabs fought over Central Asia. The last of the House of Sassan escaped to China when the Persians lost their battle with the Moslems.
The American civilizations did not share in the knowledge exchange on Eurasia.
I'm making a distinction between knowledge and cultural exchange and invasion. China could communicate with the wider Eurasian world and share best practices, but they were more isolated from invasion and had a huge corner of the globe all to themselves. It was also a temperate, well-watered part of the globe.
If being in the center of the action is what makes for a dominant civilization then the Middle East would have occupied the role China did.
The American civilizations did not share in the knowledge exchange on Eurasia.
I'm making a distinction between knowledge and cultural exchange and invasion. China could communicate with the wider Eurasian world and share best practices, but they were more isolated from invasion and had a huge corner of the globe all to themselves. It was also a temperate, well-watered part of the globe.
If being in the center of the action is what makes for a dominant civilization then the Middle East would have occupied the role China did.
OK I misunderstood. Yeh, China's being somewhat far off, but not that far off was of great benefit to it.
But I dont think the same can be applied to modern North of South America. Technology means we do not have the same kind of isolation ancient/medievel China had.
Only if something catastrophic happens and brings civilization back a few hundred years, then only can America get any benefit from its geography.
China has been the preeminent civilization for most of recorded history* --- meh, not so much. They've not done anything preeminent since forever. Why else are they still nowhere?
So, here's another take. Take an ancient group of civilizations that started existing tens of thousands of years before northern China stopped drooling on itself and enter a rise of city states in the south. Spreading from modern day Hanoi to Hong Kong.
Now enter a bunch of raiding Hans that were fantastic at killing people and cultures and in successive campaigns killed off all of the city states, but didn't come into anything significant until a rather late 200 BCE. In a manner of extreme history is written by the victors, they try to destroy every remaining remnant of the older civilizations and force changes in local dialect, writing and religion.
Which brings up another point....where did these achievements come from? Well, the answer is that 7 dragons gave them to us. Alternatively, maybe, just maybe, it came from all of these conquered kingdoms that were frankly more advanced already than the Han were and not some mythical creatures.
It makes Al Gore inventing the internet seem like a white lie in comparison.
Cheap Shot exit: Nguyennie the Pooh must not be allowed to surface.
Yeah, I think so. China would love to have the energy resources in Siberia and they may get their wish. As Russia falls apart, China may walk in with a joint venture deal of some sort where China provides technical assistance and gets first dibs on the gas, oil and mineral resources. Not to mention the water.
China is very, very short of energy.
But China, due to demographic collapse, will have its own problems. With the coming shortage of workers, they will be hard-pressed to keep their status as world's leading supplier of manufactured "stuff".
The superpowers of the future will have an immigration policy that facilitates that status, since fertility rate in developed countries rapidly becomes anemic as countries progress. No change on the horizon for China, but you never know.....
Canada has a good immigration policy, but political problems for the moment.
The US immigration policy is, well.... a wreck!
All the ingredients are in the Eastern Asia area, resources and people, it's just that they don't align with political boundaries at the moment. I'd imagine things will shift around as needed
Quote:
Originally Posted by artillery77
Ummmm....ok
So, here's another take. Take an ancient group of civilizations that started existing tens of thousands of years before northern China stopped drooling on itself and enter a rise of city states in the south. Spreading from modern day Hanoi to Hong Kong.
Now enter a bunch of raiding Hans that were fantastic at killing people and cultures and in successive campaigns killed off all of the city states, but didn't come into anything significant until a rather late 200 BCE. In a manner of extreme history is written by the victors, they try to destroy every remaining remnant of the older civilizations and force changes in local dialect, writing and religion.
Which brings up another point....where did these achievements come from? Well, the answer is that 7 dragons gave them to us. Alternatively, maybe, just maybe, it came from all of these conquered kingdoms that were frankly more advanced already than the Han were and not some mythical creatures.
It makes Al Gore inventing the internet seem like a white lie in comparison.
Cheap Shot exit: Nguyennie the Pooh must not be allowed to surface.
That's the same with all of them. You could basically put Mesopotamia or Mesoamerica in the same boat. That's NOT happening today, really anywhere, so in that respect trying to straighline from the past to the present doesn't do a lot of good, cause there's so many changing factoers.
There's no denying China is basically one of the chief cornerstones of civilization. The other cradles of civilization get over emphasized because they are in a super arid environment where nothing breaks down or gets overgrown. Egypt just happened to have basically everything they've ever done preserved, at least what raiders couldn't skim away.
Then why did the Aztecs, Mayans, and Iroquois not develop into a more advanced Civilization that can compete against the Colonials?
China was not that isolated actually. They did not get hit hard by disease when Euros came. In fact a lot of the plagues Euros suffered during the Middle Ages came from East, like the Black Plague.
The Chinese had contact with Persia, and India. There is even some suggesting, the Romans sent an envoy via the India Ocean through the Straits of Malacca up to China. The Byzantines reached China. The Chinese and Arabs fought over Central Asia. The last of the House of Sassan escaped to China when the Persians lost their battle with the Moslems.
The Aztecs and Incas centralization, which helped them conquer, also made them vulnerable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil P
All the ingredients are in the Eastern Asia area, resources and people, it's just that they don't align with political boundaries at the moment. I'd imagine things will shift around as needed
That's the same with all of them. You could basically put Mesopotamia or Mesoamerica in the same boat. That's NOT happening today, really anywhere, so in that respect trying to straighline from the past to the present doesn't do a lot of good, cause there's so many changing factoers.
There's no denying China is basically one of the chief cornerstones of civilization. The other cradles of civilization get over emphasized because they are in a super arid environment where nothing breaks down or gets overgrown. Egypt just happened to have basically everything they've ever done preserved, at least what raiders couldn't skim away.
China was isolated and had limited influence on the rest of the world outside east Asia. Some of their innovations spread, but mostly they were out on their own, isolated by deserts, jungles and mountains.
Last edited by Mike from back east; 05-07-2023 at 10:51 PM..
Reason: Merged 2:1
Stong opinions, no strong logic, no sourced reasoning.
China is currently a world power economically. Personally, with their current leadership concentrating power I think things will end badly on that trajectory but what the heck is up with these posts?
China's longevity has been unreal. Other advanced cultures and civilizations have come and gone, yet China remains. This is why I scratch my head at those saying the country will collapse. That's not a smart bet judging by their history.
China's longevity has been unreal. Other advanced cultures and civilizations have come and gone, yet China remains. This is why I scratch my head at those saying the country will collapse. That's not a smart bet judging by their history.
The only thing that has endured in China is the geography.
The CCP was formed in 1921.
Historically, China, was not unified with different areas being ruled differently, speaking different languages and being in a nearly constant state of war for many centuries.
America has been unified longer than China.
China will collapse, economically. Fully 30% of their GDP is dependent upon real estate (7% here in the US) and China population will halve in the next 75 years while USA's population grows slowly.
China's growth has only been phenomenal for the past few decades and only became so because they had access to American and European markets.
... North America will accumulate people for the next 75 years and China will not. Some of it has to do with politics but basically it has to do with geography which has created a comfortable climate in an area with plenty of fuel and arable land, thus attracting the right people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil P
...All that topographical folding makes transit annoying but makes China much sexier than the midwest. ... The climate is probably better on average (if you exclude Tibet and the western parts) than the US. ...
In most of North America, the climate is fantastic for corn, but awful for people. Air conditioning 5 months out of the year, heating for another 5 months, and maybe 2 months of comfort. Compare for example much of Europe, especially Western Europe, which is more temperate. No tornadoes or hurricanes either! The Irish, English, Dutch or French settlers in what became America, sustained quite a downgrade in climate.
One might argue that the US succeeded in spite of its awful climate, rather than, because of it.
200 years ago, "attracting the right people" meant European peasants who had no shot at owning their own land in Europe, but who could do so, in the US. That impetus has, to say the least, dissipated. Which brings us to a related question: why has immigration of Europeans, to the US, basically ceased over the past 50 years?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil P
...Russia will collapse at some point in the next hundred years from their own stupidity and China would be poised to control much of Siberia, which has just as much or more potential than warm Canada.
Highly unlikely. Russia came close to collapsing at multiple times in its history... for instance in 1918-1922, and around 1600, before the advent of the Romanoffs. And before that, when being [partially] conquered by the Golden Horde. Russia has a habit of hunkering down, in a highly diminished and degraded condition, at great cost of suffering of its people... only to eventually spring back. Contrast this with, say, France or Germany... which have had histories of being utterly defeated in warfare, occupied and administered by enemy forces, and yet, maintaining a general standard of living at fairly high level.
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