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Most middle, upper-middle, and upwardly mobile people do. All of the wealthy believe that.
Generally, lower-middle and working-class people do not agree. They opt for the trades.
The initial salary may be somewhat higher in some cases. However, lifelong wages by a college-educated individual will be lower, as will the type of life they live.
White-collar people work longer, and their jobs are less physically taxing. They also live longer.
We have plenty of trade schools, and many students take that path. Twenty-five dollars per hour and no health benefits do not get you much in life. Remember, our health insurance is attached to the job. If there is no medical insurance, frequently the case, it's a hard life.
This is a good example of my theory, you only know what you know. If you don't know any non-college educated blue collar or tradespeople, you might wrongly believe they only make $25 an hour and have no benefits.
Thankful that our society needs all types of workers.
This is a good example of my theory, you only know what you know. If you don't know any non-college educated blue collar or tradespeople, you might wrongly believe they only make $25 an hour and have no benefits.
Thankful that our society needs all types of workers.
Per the latest (April 18, 2023) from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics:
"By educational attainment, full-time workers age 25 and over without a high school diploma had median weekly earnings of $682, compared with $884 for high school graduates (no college) and $1,621 for those holding at least a bachelor's degree. "
Median mean half the people earn less than that, half earn more.
So, by these numbers:
No High School: Median is $17/hr
High School Only: Median is $22/hr
College: Median is $40/hr
It sure seems to me like a college degree greatly increases the probability of having a higher income. For people with the brains and the stamina, a four-year technical degree from an average state college can bring a near guaranteed starting salary of $25 to $40 an hour without incurring ridiculously excessive debt (2 years community college, 2 years state college).
One thing I have always heard perpetuated by Americans on social media, In the media itself since I was a kid was that you need to go to College to not end up impoverished. Even In TV and movies growing up you would see that if a high school student wasn't accepted into a College it was seen as the end of the world. In Europe and here in OZ/NZ this way of thinking is very strange to us. There are PLENTY of well paid skilled occupations that don't require university. In fact leaving school at 16-18 is quite common where many may go on to learn a trade for example and earn a salary higher than many who go to University.
Is the College obsession in the US really a thing or just something we see In the media? It's just something I'm alien to and wanted to see if it's actually a thing.
It kind of is; media articles give statistics showing that college grads with at least a Bachelor's degree make more than those without. The people who are able to make more money than some college grads without attending college are believed to be outliers, not a credible and sizable cohort. Part of the problem is, that more and more, employers require a BA from job applicants just to be considered for a job, to get a shot at an interview. A 4-year college degree has become so ordinary, it has almost the equivalent weight of a highschool degree a few generations back.
And high schools aren't preparing people for skilled occupations. The auto industry, for example, these days requires applicants for assembly line jobs to have some basic computer-based engineering skills, but our HS grads don't have that. It's the 2-year community colleges that offer that, and many don't. Auto manufacturers have had to create partnerships with local community colleges to design programs offering the skills those employers need, in order to have a pool of local skilled workers.
The trades don't always provide steady employment. Demand for construction workers ebbs and flows, depending on the local economy around the country. And to get the top pay in those jobs, and better job security, tradesmen need to take technical courses at the community college level, to get their journeyman's qualification, it's called. So again: post-secondary schooling is required, in addition to experience and on-the-job learning, for jobs offering middle-class-level pay.
How do OZ/NZ prepare workers for those skilled occupations that you mention, OP, and what are they, besides construction-related jobs? Perhaps your highschools are better at offering preparation for the trades? US schools abandoned that curriculum decades ago in most schools. This left certain demographic groups adrift, for whom college wasn't an option or who weren't interested in university.
Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 05-16-2023 at 09:48 AM..
Per the latest (April 18, 2023) from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics:
"By educational attainment, full-time workers age 25 and over without a high school diploma had median weekly earnings of $682, compared with $884 for high school graduates (no college) and $1,621 for those holding at least a bachelor's degree. "
Median mean half the people earn less than that, half earn more.
So, by these numbers:
No High School: Median is $17/hr
High School Only: Median is $22/hr College: Median is $40/hr
It sure seems to me like a college degree greatly increases the probability of having a higher income. For people with the brains and the stamina, a four-year technical degree from an average state college can bring a near guaranteed starting salary of $25 to $40 an hour without incurring ridiculously excessive debt (2 years community college, 2 years state college).
I think more information is needed to assess the bolded stats. Like: what jobs are below the median, what jobs are above. I can tell you, there are scads of office administrative jobs, to give an example, that pay far less than the median. In some urban areas, they no longer pay enough for workers to pay the inflated rents. And while some of those jobs don't require a BA, some employers, universities for example, for the most part only hire office workers with BA's.
We've had a number of parents posting on the education forum over the years, who were dismayed, that after helping their kids pay exorbitant college tuitions, it only qualified them for basic entry-level office work, company mail clerk, and other menial jobs. I don't know how it's possible for parents in the 21st Century to not know, that the real earning power comes with professional degrees, IOW--a Master's degree, but just paying for a BA is such a hurdle to overcome for most, even if the student works part time and accesses financial aid, that thoughts of an advanced degree seem like pie-in-the-sky to many parents.
The unrealistically high cost of higher education probably (?) is a burden students and their parents in Oz/NZ don't face, I'm guessing.
Per the latest (April 18, 2023) from the US Bureau of Labor Statistics:
"By educational attainment, full-time workers age 25 and over without a high school diploma had median weekly earnings of $682, compared with $884 for high school graduates (no college) and $1,621 for those holding at least a bachelor's degree. "
Median mean half the people earn less than that, half earn more.
So, by these numbers:
No High School: Median is $17/hr
High School Only: Median is $22/hr
College: Median is $40/hr
It sure seems to me like a college degree greatly increases the probability of having a higher income. For people with the brains and the stamina, a four-year technical degree from an average state college can bring a near guaranteed starting salary of $25 to $40 an hour without incurring ridiculously excessive debt (2 years community college, 2 years state college).
Good points. I was talking more about blue collar tradespeople, like plumbers, electricians, power line workers, etc. I come from a family of plumbers and that's what I know best. Definitely not a low paying career.
Also, we have had vocational schools in most areas we've lived in. The schools work with local industry to train and move the best students right into high paying jobs. Too bad some areas don't have that.
It seems that fewer Americans believe college is essential. Story today in the WaPo has this to say.
Excerpts:
"Some 2.5 million fewer Americans are enrolled in college than in 2011, and the decline is accelerating. The college-going rate of high school graduates has dropped from 70% in 2016 to 62% in 2022, and if this trend continues, a group of young Americans will — for the first time in our history — enter the workforce with less education than the one before."
"As a university president, I worry not simply for the financial health of the institution I serve. Rather, my fears are for our country’s long-term economic competitiveness as we experience a widespread devaluing of education and the erosion of the educational advantage that we’ve held in global affairs for the past 70 years. This is the most serious long-term national security challenge facing our country."
"American firms own more patents than Germany and China combined. But constant innovation requires education, and the steady increase in college-going rates from about 60% in 1990 to nearly 70% by 2010 played a vital role in this 30-year run."
"Though some individuals certainly can be successful without college, the average impact of a college degree on a person’s lifetime earnings is well over $1 million — and growing. A person with a college degree is only half as likely to be unemployed compared with those that have only a high school diploma and 3.5 times less likely to experience poverty. And the benefits of education accrue not just to the individual but also to the broader economy."
"Our advantage is fading. At the turn of the 21st century, we ranked fifth among Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development nations in educational attainment; by 2021, we were 12th. Our competitors are certainly not advising their youth, “Don’t get an education.†They’re playing a long game, and they’re playing to win."
That's the views of a university president, a former Army officer who led troops. The underlined words are my doing, i.e., education provides unquantifiable benefits to our society, but benefits just the same.
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It kind of is; media articles give statistics showing that college grads with at least a Bachelor's degree make more than those without. The people who are able to make more money than some college grads without attending college are believed to be outliers, not a credible and sizable cohort. Part of the problem is, that more and more, employers require a BA from job applicants just to be considered for a job, to get a shot at an interview. A 4-year college degree has become so ordinary, it has almost the equivalent weight of a highschool degree a few generations back.
And high schools aren't preparing people for skilled occupations. The auto industry, for example, these days requires applicants for assembly line jobs to have some basic computer-based engineering skills, but our HS grads don't have that. It's the 2-year community colleges that offer that, and many don't. Auto manufacturers have had to create partnerships with local community colleges to design programs offering the skills those employers need, in order to have a pool of local skilled workers.
The trades don't always provide steady employment. Demand for construction workers ebbs and flows, depending on the local economy around the country. And to get the top pay in those jobs, and better job security, tradesmen need to take technical courses at the community college level, to get their journeyman's qualification, it's called. So again: post-secondary schooling is required, in addition to experience and on-the-job learning, for jobs offering middle-class-level pay.
How do OZ/NZ prepare workers for those skilled occupations that you mention, OP, and what are they, besides construction-related jobs? Perhaps your highschools are better at offering preparation for the trades? US schools abandoned that curriculum decades ago in most schools. This left certain demographic groups adrift, for whom college wasn't an option or who weren't interested in university.
One thing I used to caution students about when I would hear them say, "I have an uncle who makes really good money in contruction" (or something along those lines) was, "And will he love it when he's 60?"
And construction jobs in the north in the winter, or here in Arizona in the summer when temps hit 120...factors like that need to be considered by young people.
My husband was a college educated IT Professional. Want to know how many times his jobs were OFF SHORED?
His Nephew was a Union Master Plumber who just retired at 52. He used to say to his Uncle all the time that he got paid a lot of money (pointing to his brain) for what's in here, not for what's in here (making an arm muscle). "My job cannot be done by some guy IN INDIA".
Now that he is officially retired from the RR, he can still do free lance jobs as he chooses, and make very decent money still.
What is your goal? To make ends meet or have a good salary. Of course, an education is not required to live happily.
I chose the path to make good money. I have a high stress job and I easily make 6 figures. I have an education that I will not list but its extensive. Having all that education does NOT mean that a person is intelligent. You can be intelligent without degrees. But, an education "helps" remove risks and assure employment, unless you get lucky. Lucky is not a path that I did not feel comfortable, so I chose the guaranteed money maker path.
I don't know if Americans do, but American companies seem to. In a large majority of cases, you won't get past the ATS unless you can check that box. It's rarely a matter of convincing a human that you're capable of doing the job without a degree. The checklist is already created, and it's incredibly rigid in most cases.
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