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...simultaneously finding every way possible to try to hold them down.
Let me give an example. I find that this forum skews older, conservative, pro-business, anti-labor. Mind you, not everyone, but mostly. There is plenty of talk about people pulling their weight and working to earn a living.
However, almost ironically, I find that discussions about wages and employee rights tend to have heavy anti-employee sentiment. I see comments that are pro-exploitation in nature. I see comments that attempt to devalue an employee's worth. I see a lot of gaslighting. I see a lot of grievances expressed about lack of loyalty on the employee's part, but no consideration of the fact that a company could axe you with no notice at all. In fact, I find that there is a certain resentful lust over this idea that you can be terminated and/or blackballed for no reason at all. In all, these pro-business types love to remind us constantly of how little value their employees are to them.
If you want people to believe in their own ability to earn an honest living and support their family, then why would one work so hard to diminish their ability to do so? Isn't it ethically right or fair that someone is paid the value they bring to an organization? Shouldn't good employees be treated as if they are valuable to the company? Isn't loyalty a two way street?
Last edited by digitalUID; 07-31-2023 at 11:08 AM..
Bootstrapping is a myth, probably fits into the same category as the other "big lies" that ever existed.
It's a way to keep people down, especially people or groups you don't like.
It's a way to avoid applying educational resources that could help or enable people to succeed or prosper. People are told that our meager public school offerings are all you need to succeed.
It's a way to use the example of those who do manage to prosper and rise above their station in life and flaunt them at the have-nots while gaslighting them that if this person can do it on their own then so can you, so shut up and get busy.
It's a way to blame the victim for all the factors that keep so many people grinding away in poverty. Make no mistake, some of the factors holding people down are deliberate. The SCOTUS had to resolve a case from VA where school boards deliberately gave Black students old outdated textbooks in poor condition to assure they got a lousy education and were unable to compete in job markets with White persons. The list goes on and on.
Here are some excerpts from around the web. I could've listed another dozen reputable sources.
- Here's the take of the Brookings Institution, one of the best think tanks in the nation and the world. "The bootstrap myth has been proven false, again and again." Here's a YouTube video that explains what happens to various demographic groups.
- Here's the view of Psychology Today. Excerpt: "The iconic image of the rugged individual thriving against all odds makes a great story but in real life is quite uncommon. If you or anyone you know overcame adversity all on their own, congratulations. You’re the exception that proves the rule. While many children find a way forward, it’s an uneven starting line. Countless lives are undermined before children have even begun to develop both the motivation and the skills they need to succeed in school and elsewhere." (The article goes on to explain how the lives of millions are already locked into poverty by the time they begin grade school. It's good reading.)
- Here's a column from the NY Times, with a great cartoon as well. This link WILL get you past the paywall. Here's an excerpt: "Back in the 1800s, the expression “pull oneself up by the bootstraps” meant the opposite of what it does now. Then it was used mockingly to describe an impossible act. An 1834 publication ridiculed a claim to have built a perpetual-motion machine by saying that the inventor might next heave himself over a river “by the straps of his boots.” An 1840 citation scoffs that something is “as gross an absurdity as he who attempts to raise himself over a fence by the straps of his boots.”" (Reader comments on articles in the Times are usually quite worth the reading, so click on that number 847 in the radio button to get to comments, then select Reader's Picks to get the best ones.)
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Last edited by Mike from back east; 07-31-2023 at 06:38 PM..
Boot strapping is not a myth. It's very common for entrepreneurs and like minded folks to be creative and find solutions to problems without a lot of capital expense. That's boot strapping in my mind. Nevermind the statistical analysis definition of bootstrapping for this context. It can be personal or business minded.
My wife and I have 'boot strapped' many times over the years to overcome obstacles. A lot of small businesses I work with (those that survived COVID) boot strapped and reinvented themselves. I don't give a whit what Brookings 'says'- I've seen it in action for over 30 years.
Because I am female I know how sexist US society is, that's how I was treated as an employee in several jobs I had.
I am also an artist who wanted to work in that field so I became self-employed.
Women are learning that they cannot stay in pink-collar jobs if they want to earn the pay men do but even with the same degrees and qualifications women still have to work harder to prove themselves and earn equal pay.
My husband always chooses a female employee when he has a problem that needs help. He thinks they don't BS like men do and if they don't know something they'll figure out does know. He was like that when I met him so I take no credit.
The system is set up for white males: to be hired first, to be promoted fastest, to be put in charge. I completely disagree with that premise.
Boot strapping is not a myth. It's very common for entrepreneurs and like minded folks to be creative and find solutions to problems without a lot of capital expense. That's boot strapping in my mind. Nevermind the statistical analysis definition of bootstrapping for this context. It can be personal or business minded.
My wife and I have 'boot strapped' many times over the years to overcome obstacles. A lot of small businesses I work with (those that survived COVID) boot strapped and reinvented themselves. I don't give a whit what Brookings 'says'- I've seen it in action for over 30 years.
But are you a small business owner that is holding others down? Explaining how little value they bring to the table? How replaceable they are? How they should just be grateful to have a paying job? Are you promoting ideas of exploitation? Do you gaslight people into thinking they are worse less to you than they are so you can take advantage of them for your gain? These are the people referred to in the OP. If you're not one of these types, then it doesn't really matter.
It's one thing if you believe in bootstrapping or not. It's another thing that you believe in bootstrapping and then try to hold others down by gaslighting them and making them feel worthless. If you believe in bootstrapping, then you should at least hope that everyone who wants to can thrive and is valued accordingly to what they bring to the table. This forum seems to have, IMO, a strong anti-employee bias. Yet, from the keyboards of these same people, I observe them pontificating ideas about people earning theirs. These ideas are incompatible. You can't out of one corner of your mouth promote the idea of bootstrapping while out of the other corner promote ideas of exploitation and taking advantage of employees for your own profit.
Last edited by digitalUID; 07-31-2023 at 03:47 PM..
Boot strapping is not a myth. It's very common for entrepreneurs and like minded folks to be creative and find solutions to problems without a lot of capital expense. That's boot strapping in my mind. Nevermind the statistical analysis definition of bootstrapping for this context. It can be personal or business minded.
My wife and I have 'boot strapped' many times over the years to overcome obstacles. A lot of small businesses I work with (those that survived COVID) boot strapped and reinvented themselves. I don't give a whit what Brookings 'says'- I've seen it in action for over 30 years.
Bootstrapping is real and happens, although a lot of people discount the luck and help that went into their success.
However bootstrapping is only a possibility for people with some above average quality that is innate. In other words they won the genetic lottery. It doesn't have to be intelligence; it could also be something in the grit/conscientiousness orbit. And yes, being able to concentrate on something, have a future time orientation, defer gratification, etc are all not simply learned or chosen behaviors. They are to a large extent genetic. Intelligence is the big one, and most of the studies done, which have been discussed many times on this forum, show that intelligence is mostly innate and less so environmental.
Many people don't have what it takes to bootstrap. Asking them to make something of themselves is like asking some rando off the street to run a seven minute mile. Keep in mind that's nothing special. It's still not in the cards.
I imagine you can define what bootstrapping is, as a middle class lifestyle with a house and a dog, but I think that's goalpost shifting. To me and probably to many on this forum who have found success, that would be a middling life and not something to be held up as an exemplar of success. Bootstrapping means to me more than that, a standout performance.
And even now that middle class lifestyle is increasingly out of reach.
So yes, it's possible to bootstrap if you're Lake Wobegon material. You don't have to be a genius, but I always come back to the George Carlin quote, paraphrased, "Think of how dumb the average person is. Now realize that half are dumber than that." It's a crude way of putting it, but by virtue of participating in a web forum that is mainly text based, you are probably in the top 10% of the population. It's easy to lose sight of just how hard it is to get ahead for the average person.
Bootstrapping is real and happens, although a lot of people discount the luck and help that went into their success.
However bootstrapping is only a possibility for people with some above average quality that is innate. In other words they won the genetic lottery. It doesn't have to be intelligence; it could also be something in the grit/conscientiousness orbit. And yes, being able to concentrate on something, have a future time orientation, defer gratification, etc are all not simply learned or chosen behaviors. They are to a large extent genetic. Intelligence is the big one, and most of the studies done, which have been discussed many times on this forum, show that intelligence is mostly innate and less so environmental.
Many people don't have what it takes to bootstrap. Asking them to make something of themselves is like asking some rando off the street to run a seven minute mile. Keep in mind that's nothing special. It's still not in the cards.
I imagine you can define what bootstrapping is, as a middle class lifestyle with a house and a dog, but I think that's goalpost shifting. To me and probably to many on this forum who have found success, that would be a middling life and not something to be held up as an exemplar of success. Bootstrapping means to me more than that, a standout performance.
And even now that middle class lifestyle is increasingly out of reach.
So yes, it's possible to bootstrap if you're Lake Wobegon material. You don't have to be a genius, but I always come back to the George Carlin quote, paraphrased, "Think of how dumb the average person is. Now realize that half are dumber than that." It's a crude way of putting it, but by virtue of participating in a web forum that is mainly text based, you are probably in the top 10% of the population. It's easy to lose sight of just how hard it is to get ahead for the average person.
Let's stick to topic of the OP. Arguing whether bootstrapping exists or doesn't exist, while tangential to this discussion, is not what this discussion is actually about. It's about bootstrappers who actively try to hold others down, gaslight them into feeling worthless, and promote ideas of exploitation. These ideas are incompatible. If a bootstrapper, then you should want those who want to to succeed and thrive and get the value they are worth. That is reasonably the only way that someone can 'pull themselves up' by the proverbial bootstraps.
There's no doubt that many people start from humble beginnings and succeed, some dramatically so. But those success stories are not automatic and cannot be expected to hold true for the majority of people. Education goes a long way to helping people succeed, which is clearly demonstrated in the short video I listed in post#2. In the same video, the lack of a good education is demonstrated to be an anvil around one's neck, is worse for people of color, and is a key factor holding people down in a global economy that requires a good education or the blue collar trades that value hard skills.
If one is blessed with having good native intelligence, good education, good mentors and a strong determination to overcome barriers then one may achieve a good degree of success, but the sheer mass of people who start on the bottom will mostly stay on the bottom as the myth of bootstrapping just doesn't work for them.
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But are you a small business owner that is holding others down? Explaining how little value they bring to the table? How replaceable they are? How they should just be grateful to have a paying job? Are you promoting ideas of exploitation? Do you gaslight people into thinking they are worse less to you than they are so you can take advantage of them for your gain? These are the people referred to in the OP. If you're not one of these types, then it doesn't really matter.
It's one thing if you believe in bootstrapping or not. It's another thing that you believe in bootstrapping and then try to hold others down by gaslighting them and making them feel worthless. If you believe in bootstrapping, then you should at least hope that everyone who wants to can thrive and is valued accordingly to what they bring to the table. This forum seems to have, IMO, a strong anti-employee bias. Yet, from the keyboards of these same people, I observe them pontificating ideas about people earning theirs. These ideas are incompatible. You can't out of one corner of your mouth promote the idea of bootstrapping while out of the other corner promote ideas of exploitation and taking advantage of employees for your own profit.
Personally i have not witnessed what you are describing.
And yes- I was a partner in a de novo bank that valued our employees and encouraged them to work towards bigger and better things. I was that way as a manager and senior level VP in other institutions as well.
Quite frankly- sometimes the thing that is holding one down is themselves.
Personally i have not witnessed what you are describing.
And yes- I was a partner in a de novo bank that valued our employees and encouraged them to work towards bigger and better things. I was that way as a manager and senior level VP in other institutions as well.
Quite frankly- sometimes the thing that is holding one down is themselves.
Some people turn a blind eye to the things they kind of agree with, too. I requested that one of my threads be closed down, because it was apparent to me the dogpiling that was occurring, when the pro-business, anti-employee types started posting comments undermining my views on my value to the organization. It became very apparent to me that I was not going to be receiving actual advice about improving my situation, but rather a tear down about how I should watch my back and be grateful that I have any sort of job. This basically sums up most of the advice dished out on the Employment, all from the same cast of bootlickers and bootstrappers telling people they need to earn theirs.
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