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Try that again at -40F or below and tell me that it's operator error...
Tube heater. I've wrestled with an old International truck that doesn't even like it when it gets below 40 degrees let alone -40. If it was -40 getting it going would be monumental task.
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Up here, the big rigs are doing one of three things, they're either running all of the time, in a heated garage, or have their heaters plugged in to a wall outlet before they're turned off.
They used to run a lot of machinery years ago constantly even here in PA. I watched a guy spend a few days trying to get a old D9 going, the newer machines not so much of a problem.
Tube heater. I've wrestled with an old International truck that doesn't even like it when it gets below 40 degrees let alone -40. If it was -40 getting it going would be monumental task.
He did that too (on my advice), no dice... <wow writing in rhyming couplets >
It's common up here propane space heater (30k BTU) on a flue pipe ducted up into the engine compartment and tranny. Put a tarp over the whole thing and wait. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
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Originally Posted by thecoalman
They used to run a lot of machinery years ago constantly even here in PA. I watched a guy spend a few days trying to get a old D9 going, the newer machines not so much of a problem.
Newer diesels do work better, but the problem is intrinsic to the fuel (even gasoline) when temps drop. That fuel needs to be above a certain temperature to flash, and/or flow. Below -40F and there's few guarantees with either gasoline or diesel, but your chances are better with gas than diesel, #1 diesel will cloud and clog your fuel filter at -40F anyway unless it's warmed (hence the heaters, both mains powered and alternator powered), but because of the lower lubricating.properties it's rare to see pure DF1 (even here).
We're so not getting into the diesel argument *again* The way I look at it, when your local Dept of Transportation foreman tells you not to rely on a diesel in winter, and they don't even run their happily garaged and heated diesel equipment outside when it's below -20... well, that speaks for itself! When the daytime high is -20 and below for months non-stop (ambient, not just wind chill), you have to keep it warm, keep it plugged in, or keep it running... period. Get down below -40 and you're reaching the point where even treated gasoline won't ignite and a running vehicle will start stalling on you.
But anyway, back to the EV tractor... not only is the no sunlight (well, maybe 2 hours) for solar panels an issue for us in the winter, but it's cold enough that batts freeze or go flat in a matter of hours (depending on what type they are). So, no using the tractor to plow snow unless we're lugging the batts in and out of the warm house and have them on a trickle charge hooked up to the generator... but if we're using gas for that, makes more sense to just use a plow mount on the truck or ATV instead. But I'd totally go with an EV tractor and a solar charger for summer use... battery technology might not be perfect or exceptionally efficient or that much greener, but if I can make my own "fuel" every day from what shines down on us every day, and only replace my batteries every 5-10 years instead of needing to fill up the tank every week -- BONUS.
Try that again at -40F or below and tell me that it's operator error...
I stand corrected.
Of course you are right.
I live in a region where it seriously never gets very cold at all. The coolest I have seen here has been -25F
In the context of -25F to 100F we do not experience issues with diesel engines starting. But yes if you are in a cooler area your experiences may be different.
The slight rise over the last decade was preceded by decades of decline, adjusted for inflation I believe it was halved between the 50's and 2000. EIA projections suggest small decrease over the coming decade, overall a flat price into 2035. Making such projections because of so many uncertainties like CO2 legislation is problematic.
EIA "projections" as they say . . . tend to have some hokum. At least they do in my industry -- Electric Power. They SO DID NOT see the downturn coming, and the numbers going negative, they are now dealing with that by stretching the projections across decades to make the negative numbers looks small.
Growth! We MUST have Growth! GROWTH! Growth for the sake of Growth, I tells you! [the ethos of the Cancer Cell, as well]
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From my own records the cost of anthracite has kept pace with inflation since the early 80's which is completely different market than the soft coal market, it does not have the huge swings in price common to most fuels. Retail it's more than double the cost of soft coal. Cost you about $900 to heat 2000 sq ft home in Northeastern Pennsylvania winter and that includes domestic hot water year round. $300 to $400 if you were to use soft coal, some people pay that much per month with other fuels. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Whole other world for us. We dig up dirt and burn it, while calling it Lignite, and pretend it is Coal. Probably less than 1/2 to 1/3 of the energy content of what you sell. The import option for us is trending towards PRB (Powder River Basin). NO BODY anywhere around here has even heard of using Coal to directly heat domestic hot water.
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Citation? Having said that yes natural gas is fairly cheap.
Well of course. We work in the field, we know this. Duh. Can we knock off the gay stuff with 8th Honors Debate routine of Citations from Weekly Reader?
When I am doing peer-reviewed, we do peer-reviewed. Don't think that is the case in several dimensions around here. Do you?
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From a retail point of view coal needs to be about $300 a ton before it loses it's competitive edge. Having been in the retail business for decades I've seen NG prices flirt with the cost of coal, I've seen oil prices flirt with the cost of coal......... bottom line is they never quite make it and inevitably rise. The cost of NG is very low now because we have booming domestic industry but that won't last forever.
You may have THAT very correct. What goes up quick can come down very quick, as well.
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Citation? Practical working application in cold climate that meets your claims?
Citation? For Solar Thermal? Jebus. read Wiki or something. Get some common knowledge of the topic.
But looking at this and sample details you use -- we are in whole different worlds. THAT is probably a huge difference on the perspective. When I am talking Coal (etc.) it is for power plants. And being dug up by draglines with bites the size of houses to feed 600 MW + power plants. These places suck down a couple of 110 car train loads a week.
That utility scale is where the battle for the bottom is at. Not in what you do.
Hierarchy goes like this: Hydro is cheapest, but maxed out. Next has been Coal, but NG is edging under with the new Combined Cycle plants. Solar Thermal is edging under those prices but is being slowed due to the overall slack demand for electricity. Wind is up and down and all the map. Nukes are a bad joke, and PV is the most expensive, but has some good applications for distributed generation.
Your perspective is a dump truck load to a customer once or twice a season, right? That sounds like a great niche. Probably most of your money is from the service and relationship and not the cost of the product, anyway, right?
But anyway, back to the EV tractor... not only is the no sunlight (well, maybe 2 hours) for solar panels an issue for us in the winter, but it's cold enough that batts freeze or go flat in a matter of hours (depending on what type they are). So, no using the tractor to plow snow unless we're lugging the batts in and out of the warm house and have them on a trickle charge hooked up to the generator... but if we're using gas for that, makes more sense to just use a plow mount on the truck or ATV instead. But I'd totally go with an EV tractor and a solar charger for summer use... battery technology might not be perfect or exceptionally efficient or that much greener, but if I can make my own "fuel" every day from what shines down on us every day, and only replace my batteries every 5-10 years instead of needing to fill up the tank every week -- BONUS.
Guess that was/is directed towards me -- regarding Electric Farming and Tractors, etc.?
Yes there is a VERY Good Known and Proven Solution for Snow and the Frozen North. Stay out of the **** come Winter. A lifetime ago, I was from Michigan. I know of what I speak. That was why the Civil War was fought and won by the North. So there would be a warm place to go come Winter.
But for real -- thinking Electric Tractors and Batteries is not where this is at. If you wish some background here is a decent start >>>
This is the side of electric automobiles that many people fail to consider, the lifetime emissions of electric cars that include the manufacturing, driving and disposal of the vehicle.
Once all the above factors are figured in the electric automobile is worse than a gasoline powered car when it comes to lifetime CO2 pollution.
What's interesting about the projections is decreased cost for the coal under cap and trade, only because the demand drops.
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Originally Posted by Philip T
Whole other world for us. We dig up dirt and burn it, while calling it Lignite, and pretend it is Coal. Probably less than 1/2 to 1/3 of the energy content of what you sell. The import option for us is trending towards PRB (Powder River Basin). NO BODY anywhere around here has even heard of using Coal to directly heat domestic hot water.
It's about efficiency Phil. As far as the hot water goes it's indirect, no different than standard boiler:
Note where the flue outlet is, an anthracite boiler runs about 80 to 90% efficiency. There's one coming on the market now with prelimnary testing in the 92% range.
Generally speaking these don't work very well with soft coal especially soft coal from Appalachia, the high volatile content causes clinkering which makes the automation inconsistent across different coals. Wrong coal and this would be a nightmare. Anthracite burns up to a powder or it might have a granola type consistency. They have tested it with some western coals, this particular one in the following video is EFM boiler base modified to burn soft coal. The coal is from Wyoming and it worked superbly. It's actually in Wyoming right now, the issue becomes the sulfur smell and the soot. Anthracite has neither of these problems, you could use it any urban environment. Neighbors would never even know.
The tube coming of the left in the following picture is for the auger, the garbage can is temporary hopper and could be anything like 55 gallon drum or even giant hopper with 10 ton of coal in it for nearly full automation. FYI this is 50's design that has seen very little changes over the years except for some minor tweaks. If they were used 24/7/365 there is still some operational from then.
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Well of course. We work in the field, we know this. Duh. Can we knock off the gay stuff with 8th Honors Debate routine of Citations from Weekly Reader?
If you're going to cite something at least back it up, if you can't support your arguments with some references then they are meaningless. Someone is just supposed to take your word for it? I want references so I can draw my own conclusions, I'm not going to rely on yours. You realize Natural gas was going through the roof right along with everything else in 2007? We now have a booming domestic natural gas industry hence the reason it.s so cheap. There is a lot of supply and you can expect NG prices to remain stable over the next few years.
Now if we wanted to cite something I could cite the fact that 2010 was banner year for coal plants going online, the most since 1985. More coming.
So much for your suggestion of the demise of the coal plant. Nice try though.
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Your perspective is a dump truck load to a customer once or twice a season, right? That sounds like a great niche. Probably most of your money is from the service and relationship and not the cost of the product, anyway, right?
Not anymore, I'm "retired". Wasn't a dump either but a high lift which is similar to what you might see at airport for luggage. It's a bit of specialized business, not many people do it. Like me it's mostly family business, I'm fourth and last generation. The cost of the lift being one of the reasons. Need a lot of customers to justify a new lift that is going o be more than the truck. As far as the product goes it was just a pass the cost onto the consumer type deal with my profit coming from the service. Right now my only personal interest with coal is a website I have for those interested in using coal for heating.
Having said that I'm quite familiar with this topic, I've done my research thoroughly as I do with any topic that interests me.
Last edited by thecoalman; 07-10-2011 at 06:43 PM..
Could we say that these issues are one way for folks below 48N and an other way for folks above 48N?
I do apologize for my earlier post, I was not thinking about above 48N.
No worries, no offense taken It's hard to imagine the differences a little latitude can make... even the difference between Maritime Anchorage (60N) and Continental Fairbanks (65N) can be a big shocker at times, much less the Lower 48 (<48N) to the Far North (>60N). I lived in some darned *cold* places in my life, and they weren't anything like it is here... good prep, but not the same. We have a full 6 months below freezing, most of that (well) below 0F, maybe a few days here and there above 0 during a warm spell... it's hard to wrap your brain around. Most folks don't live in ice from Halloween to Easter, or know what it's like for it to be too cold to snow
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I've wrestled with an old International truck that doesn't even like it when it gets below 40 degrees let alone -40. If it was -40 getting it going would be monumental task. 
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