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How many people have died from fracking vs. those that have died from fighting to use Arabian oil? The sooner the US can become completely energy independent the safer this country will become.
Fraking can injure and one of these days is going to lead to deaths. I live in Cushing, OK. The whole storage of oil for tomorrow system is in this area. After the recent quakes, a lot of concern is being expressed for the safety of this facility. And our town has many buildings built back in the thirties and earlier. Many of the buildings in the business district are over a hundred.
We had a 5.3 quake a week so ago. My house is a mile from the epicenter. I hung onto a chair and hoped the hanging light didn't fall but the ground was moving so much you couldn't move. But in the middle of town is a residental assisted living building. It is also very old. One of the floors collapsed into the other, and the whole building had major damage. Much of downtown has major damage. But my house was built in 1930. One of the quakes is going to damage it more than badly hung doors, but perhaps now that all the wells in a large ring are shut (by order of state agency) we might be lucky. We're still getting aftershocks. A few months ago the quake felt all the way into Kansas and beyond which was the worse I've ever felt (and I lived in Socal up to moving here, felt all the major ones) and it was proven to be from an ancient fault which fraking had reawakened. One company is appealing the shutdown of several of their wells since it had reduced the flow of oil to non profit. The Commission having finally chosen to act, they turned them down. Not having more quakes involving multiple states was judged more important.
We will not be safer if we rewake old faults and damage housing and businesses in areas where quakes were rare or not at all. Oil and money and the rest is NOT worth the safety of our citizens in their homes as every area where fraking has been uses has showed this same pattern.
I think the company who thought they were going to benefit from this crime needs to pay for every dollar of repair of buildings, loss of income for the owners of businesses, and additional monies for the citizens who had their lives shaken by the GREED of oil concerns.
You cannot say how many have died from fraking if areas where mild or not at all quakes were the rule turn into hot zones. You waken the earth and it won't go quiet so easily, but will continue to shake worse and harder and more if fraking is allowed to continue.
People matter more. They will not be 'safer' if they have to worry about the ground destroying all they have. All the people get out of this sacrifice is no place to live while the oil companies prosper.
Last edited by nightbird47; 11-13-2016 at 07:36 PM..
Really? States enjoy sovereign immunity except where specifically curbed by federal laws. Laws that like CWA and CAA are overseen by federal agencies like the EPA. So no, the statement "states sue states" as analogous to how neighbors is not true. In fact, the only recourse states have to legally go after another state for pollution is THROUGH THE EPA.
Additionally, the recognition of the need for federal oversight regarding extraterritorial pollution is part of what gave rise to the EPA.
Maybe, before you should read up before you spout off.
The reason you can petition your local community is that your state has laws that allow you to do so. Likewise the framework for recourse between the states is through the EPA.
Source? Because I regularly drive a federally owned truck, it is inspected every year and must pass emissions laws.
What are you talking about? I work in a federal lab on federal property, the review process to do anything is far more extensive than local rule. This needs a source as well.
Do we really need people to just make things up?
First, EISA, of which light bulbs were a tiny piece, was signed into law by a Republican president. Second, it did not dictate what bulbs could be sold but simply required bulbs sold to meet the same level of efficiency as other first world countries. As for low flush toilets, another regulation signed into being by a Republican president you know the guys who do small government?
Do you know how much energy, water, and so on are saved by those two pieces of legislation?
You asked for more information which I provided... I can't do more.
Case in point... a New Post Office was being built in Oakland California... the neighborhood didn't like the size or alignment or the traffic that would be generated in a residential neighborhood. I attended the city council meetings and spoke and collected signatures... the Oakland city attorney said the bottom line is there is nothing the city can do to prevent the location even if it does not conform to zoning...
This is not a typical response from Oakland leaders who are not shy about voicing concerns.
What else do you want me to say?
I never made this a Republican or Democrat reference to light bulbs or low flow toilets... I HAVE NEVER been a Republican... why bring politics into my statement when I explained there are enough people that resent being told what to do from Washington...
The State of California auctions off surplus vehicles... I have received the disclaimer to bidders that vehicles sold may not be in compliance with applicable Emission Standards which may prevent them from being licensed...
I maintain Hospital Emergency Power Generators... the VA has the same but as they are Federally owned they are not subject to the rules everyone else must follow... same for the military and national guard motor pool...
Understand you are upset... it is only natural when things don't go as planned. Trump has done nothing but become President Elect... don't let it psych you out before he has even become President...
If your neighbor started dumping his garbage in your back yard, would you be fine with your township telling you to "lead by example"? Or would you expect someone to stop it from happening ? I bet it's the later. The EPA protects citizens of one state from being harmed by pollution from another and if you think this wasn't an issue look at what happened before he EPA was formed.
You are from NJ? I have the ideal solution. Here in PA we'll pull the plug on the power plants producing electricity flowing into NJ. That's a win for the environment in both states.
In addition to that we can eliminate the coal and natural gas that NJ is importing from PA thus reducing the environmental issues caused in PA by NJ's consumption and air pollution in NJ. Another win for the environment in both states.
If you wish to continue to import that coal and gas we can assess an environmental impact fee on those products to be paid for by NJ residents since they are the ones consuming those products that are causing environmental damage in PA.
Fraking can injure and one of these days is going to lead to deaths. I live in Cushing, OK. The whole storage of oil for tomorrow system is in this area. After the recent quakes, a lot of concern is being expressed for the safety of this facility. And our town has many buildings built back in the thirties and earlier. Many of the buildings in the business district are over a hundred.
We had a 5.3 quake a week so ago. My house is a mile from the epicenter. I hung onto a chair and hoped the hanging light didn't fall but the ground was moving so much you couldn't move. But in the middle of town is a residental assisted living building. It is also very old. One of the floors collapsed into the other, and the whole building had major damage. Much of downtown has major damage. But my house was built in 1930. One of the quakes is going to damage it more than badly hung doors, but perhaps now that all the wells in a large ring are shut (by order of state agency) we might be lucky. We're still getting aftershocks. A few months ago the quake felt all the way into Kansas and beyond which was the worse I've ever felt (and I lived in Socal up to moving here, felt all the major ones) and it was proven to be from an ancient fault which fraking had reawakened. One company is appealing the shutdown of several of their wells since it had reduced the flow of oil to non profit. The Commission having finally chosen to act, they turned them down. Not having more quakes involving multiple states was judged more important.
We will not be safer if we rewake old faults and damage housing and businesses in areas where quakes were rare or not at all. Oil and money and the rest is NOT worth the safety of our citizens in their homes as every area where fraking has been uses has showed this same pattern.
I think the company who thought they were going to benefit from this crime needs to pay for every dollar of repair of buildings, loss of income for the owners of businesses, and additional monies for the citizens who had their lives shaken by the GREED of oil concerns.
You cannot say how many have died from fraking if areas where mild or not at all quakes were the rule turn into hot zones. You waken the earth and it won't go quiet so easily, but will continue to shake worse and harder and more if fraking is allowed to continue.
People matter more. They will not be 'safer' if they have to worry about the ground destroying all they have. All the people get out of this sacrifice is no place to live while the oil companies prosper.
The earthquakes have been linked to disposal wells and not the fracking wells themselves. The disposal wells go very deep into the earths crust. There are alternatives for disposal and they are not necessary for fracking.
What is interesting about this is those faults are already under pressure and will slip by themselves at some point. If you can nudge it along by causing small earthquakes perhaps you can avoid one massive quake in the future, I know that is one of things being speculated. In any event I'm sure Geologists are having a field day with this, it's knowledge they could never hope to gain otherwise.
The more people we have in this country illegal or not requires more housing, more electricity, more transportation, more vehicles, more schools, etc. The legal immigrants coming into this country will have significant impact in the decades to come let alone when you factor in the illegal, one of the reasons for that is they typically have very large families. Another issue is we are usually taking more educated people when they legally immigrate here, that may be great for us bit so not great for the country losing them. The conditions in those countries will continue to stagnate if you are robbing them of their doctors, scientist and business people. That would include environmental conditions
While the numbers in this video have been criticized for being inflated even if they are a little it's still a huge problem going forward, as noted you are going to make a very little dent in these populations outside of the US.
Interesting information. I wonder, are the people who come from other parts of the USA like Puerto Rico also considered immigrants? I was also wondering about birth control also . Maybe we should offer free birth control ?And maybe free vasectomy and tubal ligation surgeries to anyone who wants them?
About large families many born and raised Americans can have a lot of kids too and it is not only the highly educated that make a country work. Those in the trades are important too. And those who take the jobs that help a society function . Anyone who is a hard worker and good at their job no matter what that job is helps to make a country successful.
Last edited by vanguardisle; 11-14-2016 at 06:46 AM..
You are from NJ? I have the ideal solution. Here in PA we'll pull the plug on the power plants producing electricity flowing into NJ. That's a win for the environment in both states.
In addition to that we can eliminate the coal and natural gas that NJ is importing from PA thus reducing the environmental issues caused in PA by NJ's consumption and air pollution in NJ. Another win for the environment in both states.
If you wish to continue to import that coal and gas we can assess an environmental impact fee on those products to be paid for by NJ residents since they are the ones consuming those products that are causing environmental damage in PA.
Sound fair?
Sure, I am all about taxing energy from dirty fuels like coal (which is accounts for something like 30T btu, compared to over 350T btu we make from renewables in state). It is interesting how you tried to pretend natural gas and coal are equivalent, very dishonest. And it is additionally disingenuous to claim our natural gas comes from PA when "New Jersey's natural gas has traditionally come from the Gulf of Mexico region."https://www.eia.gov/state/analysis.cfm?sid=NJ#34
But yes, before that Marcellus shale gas gets here, I am for taxing it when it is being used to generate electricity.
Also lets use that tax money to further subsidize clean energy since as you know NJ has one of the higher renewable energy portfolios in the US. BOEM is nearly done with the offshore wind farm surveys, and that will be an excellent renewable source for NJ. Oyster creek could use some updating to keep it online for another 20 years.
The earthquakes have been linked to disposal wells and not the fracking wells themselves. The disposal wells go very deep into the earths crust. There are alternatives for disposal and they are not necessary for fracking.
What is interesting about this is those faults are already under pressure and will slip by themselves at some point. If you can nudge it along by causing small earthquakes perhaps you can avoid one massive quake in the future, I know that is one of things being speculated. In any event I'm sure Geologists are having a field day with this, it's knowledge they could never hope to gain otherwise.
You asked for more information which I provided... I can't do more.
Case in point... a New Post Office was being built in Oakland California... the neighborhood didn't like the size or alignment or the traffic that would be generated in a residential neighborhood. I attended the city council meetings and spoke and collected signatures... the Oakland city attorney said the bottom line is there is nothing the city can do to prevent the location even if it does not conform to zoning...
This is not a typical response from Oakland leaders who are not shy about voicing concerns.
What else do you want me to say?
I never made this a Republican or Democrat reference to light bulbs or low flow toilets... I HAVE NEVER been a Republican... why bring politics into my statement when I explained there are enough people that resent being told what to do from Washington...
The State of California auctions off surplus vehicles... I have received the disclaimer to bidders that vehicles sold may not be in compliance with applicable Emission Standards which may prevent them from being licensed...
I maintain Hospital Emergency Power Generators... the VA has the same but as they are Federally owned they are not subject to the rules everyone else must follow... same for the military and national guard motor pool...
Understand you are upset... it is only natural when things don't go as planned. Trump has done nothing but become President Elect... don't let it psych you out before he has even become President...
You ignored everything I posted. Why?
Is it because you now maybe realize that when the EPA is dismantled states will have no recourse for interstate pollution?
As for your claim that federal vehicles do not need to meet emissions standards, do you not get that California has different emission standards than the rest of the country, including the feds? Just because they do not have to meet california standards does not mean they do not have to meet emissions standards at all
I live near a major seaport so I know a little about what gets shipped back over... it's also one of the reasons why I'm a minimalist. They're shipping back "recyclables".. plastic bottles, textiles and electronics. A lot of our electronics end up back in Asia on the border between Hong Kong and mainland and in Africa. Places where there isn't an EPA or worker protections. So you've got 3rd world citizens pulling apart cell phones, hard drives, ink cartridges by hand.. some of them quite young... exposing themselves and their local environment to all those toxic and carcinogenic metals and chemicals. You may think it's a small percentage of product, but consider that most consumer products are discarded within 6 months to a year (See Story of Stuff for citation). I used to believe that "recycling" would solve a lot of problems and that I could retain my upper middle class consumer habits but then I kept hearing these nagging NPR reports about what really happens to our unwanted stuff... where it goes and what is done with it and who's doing it.
I was so deflated.
I am every bit a global citizen as I am an American and having the poor, 3rd world global citizens expose themselves on my behalf.. where I get all the benefit and they get all the risk... is simply WRONG.
It's WRONG.
So I when I buy stuff I usually take more time because I'm trying to buy everything used. Last week I found a used electric scooter for my 10 year old for Christmas. He'll probably use it for a week and then I'll gift it to someone in my Buy Nothing group. I'm also looking for a used BB-8 ball droid thingy that was all the rage last year. "shopping" is a matter of patience and luck these days....
I also suggest Frontline from PBS . They have those stories also. A small amount of the used stuff shipped there is still usable and helps them but most is just junk. Another issue is hacking. You would not believe some of the information they can retrieve from the used computers shipped overseas, not just personal computers but businesses throw theirs away too. There are people in that country who know how to find and use the information stilled stored on those old computers.
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