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People seem preoccupied with storage. It isn't required in grid connected systems where there is already backup capacity. Storage when it happens will be great, but renewables without storage are still very good investments.
No...they are not from a societal point of view.
Here in the Northwest the Federal taxpayers MUST pay for the wind power generated at above market rates. BPA (Bonneville Power Administration) then refuses to buy power from county owned dams in the region. The county PUD's then must PAY to sell that power.
The money goes to out-of-state and out-of-country corporations that own the Industrial Wind Areas. The local residents and Federal taxpayers pay for wind power that is NOT needed or used.
So how can it be a "good investment" when existing investments in infrastructure are rendered useless, because wind power MUST be bought by the Federal power agency??
We have an excess of electricity in the Northwest. Almost all of it is carbon free due to hydro....why build Industrial Wind Areas in the Northwest??
Oh yes..."we have the best government money can buy" and they have bought it so the taxpayers must foot the bill since it is "green".
It is a giant program to benefit the rich Corporations that have bought our state and Federal government lock stock and barrel. It doesn't make ecological or economic sense, but that is NOT what is important to our politicians.
Here in the Northwest the Federal taxpayers MUST pay for the wind power generated at above market rates. BPA (Bonneville Power Administration) then refuses to buy power from county owned dams in the region. The county PUD's then must PAY to sell that power.
The money goes to out-of-state and out-of-country corporations that own the Industrial Wind Areas. The local residents and Federal taxpayers pay for wind power that is NOT needed or used.
So how can it be a "good investment" when existing investments in infrastructure are rendered useless, because wind power MUST be bought by the Federal power agency??
We have an excess of electricity in the Northwest. Almost all of it is carbon free due to hydro....why build Industrial Wind Areas in the Northwest??
Oh yes..."we have the best government money can buy" and they have bought it so the taxpayers must foot the bill since it is "green".
It is a giant program to benefit the rich Corporations that have bought our state and Federal government lock stock and barrel. It doesn't make ecological or economic sense, but that is NOT what is important to our politicians.
What you fail to appreciate is how much energy can be lost in a drought year. In the Northwest you need adequate reserves to carry through in a bad drought when hydroelectric production will be severely limited. That means in wet years or even normal years, the system has excess energy. It's just the nature of having a heavy hydro system. Certainly not the fault of wind or solar.
It appears to be true. Recent long term contracts to build arrays and supply electricity are now down well under $0.03 per KWH. It is likely the mature price will get under $0.02 per KWH. See...
"It is also important to note that the price in Abu Dhabi cannot just be repeated in other markets, as a number of factors make this price viable, including state support and cost of materials and labor."
"It is also important to note that the price in Abu Dhabi cannot just be repeated in other markets, as a number of factors make this price viable, including state support and cost of materials and labor."
That was noted in my posts. However the material cost will be about the same. The real problem with roof top is that there is a 100% mark up over the full cost to cover marketing costs and overhead. So roof top is going to cost twice utility unless that changes.
Present utility contract prices in the US are under $0.04 per kwh. Chile is getting quotes under $0.03 without subsidies.
So it would appear that solar PV will be far and away the cheapest source of electricity as the newer plants come on in the early part of the next decade.
I missed it then. Your reply to my post mentioned labor costs, but nothing about state support.
My statement was "due to higher labor costs and such". The meat being we likely could not get to the ME levels. But we could get the same material cost which should get up within 10 or 20%.The plants are about 2/3 parts cost and 1/3 to soft costs which include all non parts costs. So if the ME can cut the soft costs in half they would still be around 84% of the US costs. And in half is probably high. Labor costs msay be down a good bit but profit is likely not.
My statement was "due to higher labor costs and such". The meat being we likely could not get to the ME levels. But we could get the same material cost which should get up within 10 or 20%.The plants are about 2/3 parts cost and 1/3 to soft costs which include all non parts costs. So if the ME can cut the soft costs in half they would still be around 84% of the US costs. And in half is probably high. Labor costs msay be down a good bit but profit is likely not.
Thanks for the reply. Yes I understand that labor would be higher in the U.S., and materials should be roughly the same cost. But then there's also mention of "state support" in the article, but with absolutely no details. It sounds like perhaps you know it's not significant, since you never mention this?
My understanding is that wholesale rate for electricity in U.S. is around 4 cents per kWh? Certainly there will be some regional variation, but does that sound like a good ballpark number?
Thanks for the reply. Yes I understand that labor would be higher in the U.S., and materials should be roughly the same cost. But then there's also mention of "state support" in the article, but with absolutely no details. It sounds like perhaps you know it's not significant, since you never mention this?
My understanding is that wholesale rate for electricity in U.S. is around 4 cents per kWh? Certainly there will be some regional variation, but does that sound like a good ballpark number?
It's not wise to use overly aggregated metrics like average electricity costs.
Thanks for the reply. Yes I understand that labor would be higher in the U.S., and materials should be roughly the same cost. But then there's also mention of "state support" in the article, but with absolutely no details. It sounds like perhaps you know it's not significant, since you never mention this?
My understanding is that wholesale rate for electricity in U.S. is around 4 cents per kWh? Certainly there will be some regional variation, but does that sound like a good ballpark number?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DCforever
It's not wise to use overly aggregated metrics like average electricity costs.
Yeah. The spot market wholesale price runs from about $0.033 to $0.066 on the mainland 48 states. But be careful...that is generally an incremental cost and is often less than a fully loaded cost.
To help understand if you have a facility which is paid for or being carried by your customer base and it has excess capacity at a particular time you may well sell power at a price below that offered to your regular customers. As long as it is more than your variable cost it is still a good deal.
For discussion purposes however I would think the variable cost of fossil will be in the range of $0.03 to 0.05. per kwh. So as wind or solar PV gets into this range they becomes very competitive.
solar competes with peak daytime rates often loaded with congestion charges, which can easily raise the wholesale price by an order of magnitude.
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