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I was thinking also, about the points regarding how many parts each type of vehicle has, comparatively. A vehicle with half the parts and 2/3 of the assembly time needed compared to ICE cars should cost considerably less, no?
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceangaia;
An EV may have fewer parts but not necessarily cheaper parts.
I was thinking also, about the points regarding how many parts each type of vehicle has, comparatively. A vehicle with half the parts and 2/3 of the assembly time needed compared to ICE cars should cost considerably less, no?
OK, but still--less labor involved.
Depends on the parts.
1 KG of Gold.....is just 1 part but more expensive than a car.
Gold here might relate to the battery. It will get cheaper with mass manufacturing.
Tesla 4680 battery is 30% less expensive when mass manufacturing.
The price of Li is currently just about the same as the price of gold...As demand for Li increases with increasing sales of EVs, look for it to skyrocket...Look what those meager but growing EV sales (~5% of all auto sales) has done to the price over the last 20 yrs.
...and do we really need to mention the security problems with China being the main supplier of Li?
In round numbers, the large tesla battery pack holds 100kWhr, and an EV battery pack needs ~0.16kg of Li per kW-- so that battery back would contain 18kg of Li...At last year's price, that was about $16 K for the big tesla battery (you can look up the prices. We're in the right ballpark)...BUT--
At today's Li prices, that same battery will cost more than $1 Million (!!)---- 0.16kg/kWh x 100kWh x $70K/kg
So much for cheaper batteries in the future. (There's another thread here about hiow there's not enough raw materials for an all EV world..and as demand goes up, prices will go up)
When you talk about future, talk about future. Don't bring present situation into the discussion.
In future, there would be charging stations everywhere. 100 times more than gas stations.
Future is hyper loop travel.
BEV are merely a distraction.
The problem with hybrid is you are bearing the cost and complexity of two systems. Some of the big advantages of pure EV is that they have much fewer parts and take less labor to manufacture.
Electric cars are more simple than those with gas fuel engines and have significantly fewer parts. You typically find around 15,000 parts in an electric car whereas gas-driven cars will have closer to 30,000 parts. https://motorandwheels.com/electric-...e-fewer-parts/
Hybrid cars combine electric drive hardware with a conventional, internal combustion engine, and require more labor — about 9.2 man hours compared with 6.2 hours for a typical gas vehicle. But an all-electric vehicle cuts that down to 3.7 hours, Mark Wakefield, head of the automotive practice at consultancy AlixPartners, told NBC News. https://www.nbcnews.com/business/aut...uired-n1060426
This^.
I'm not buying a car that is more complex then either of the alternatives. An all electric car would work fine for me as I rarely drive more than 15-20 miles in a day. However, they still just cost too much and my next car is likely to be another straight ICE vehicle.
When you talk about future, talk about future. Don't bring present situation into the discussion.
In future, there would be charging stations everywhere. 100 times more than gas stations.
But we don't drive in the future. We drove here and now. I choose to drive a plug-in hybrid.
According to the WSJ, carmakers have been steadily raising the prices of their EVs “partly to offset the soaring cost of materials used in their large batteries.” This has included a hike in the cost of a Hummer EV by more than $6,000 and a warning from Ford that it was no longer making a profit on sales of its Mustang Mach-E. The WSJ reports:
“The companies say they are trying to offset a recent price rise in raw materials that go into the batteries to power electric cars, by far the most expensive component of an EV. Prices for lithium, nickel and cobalt have roughly doubled since before the Covid-19 pandemic began, according to consulting firm AlixPartners LLP.”
I don't always trust the Wall Street Journal's editorial page, but their business correspondents do know how to count costs.
What's that? A Plug-in hybrid Electric Vehicle. Three pages in, and nobody's even mentioned 'em. Like the vanishing Middle Class and middle-of-the-road politicians, they're often overlooked in today's black and white, wrong or right atmosphere. But one of these has been my ride for five years now, and I expect to keep it five years more.
In a few minutes I'll drive it a dozen miles to lunch and back as an EV, using not a drop of gas. Sunday I'll drive it a hundred miles to a mountain resort. That's out of plug-in range, but it'll still get above 40 mpg as a hybrid. Overall, it's averaged 65 mpg for its 60,000-mile life. In my coal-heavy electrical grid, that's roughly equal to the CO2 emissions of a pure EV. I bought it new and loaded for $20k net after tax breaks, on a zero-percent loan. Can I get that deal on a new EV today, please?
Slouching into retirement, I don't commute. Many days I stay within the car's 20-mile EV range. I don't drive enough to make good use of a long-range EV, with its 1000-pound battery. My Ford's EV battery is only 250 lbs. Thus you can make four PHEVs for the battery material investment in one EV. If that EV replaces a 30 mpg car, it saves 33 gallons of gas per thousand miles of driving. In contrast, four PHEVs getting 60 mpg each, open the same drive, would together save 66 gallons. Almost twice the fuel and pollution savings as a single EV. And the cars are cheaper and more accessible; EV prices are currently averaging more than $10,000 over other cars.
Rushing into EVs is a mistake. We can accomplish more by hybridizing the real gas-guzzlers, such as delivery and postal trucks and railroad locomotives, than by nagging hybrid drivers into EVs they don't want or need.
What's that? A Plug-in hybrid Electric Vehicle. Three pages in, and nobody's even mentioned 'em. Like the vanishing Middle Class and middle-of-the-road politicians, they're often overlooked in today's black and white, wrong or right atmosphere. But one of these has been my ride for five years now, and I expect to keep it five years more.
In a few minutes I'll drive it a dozen miles to lunch and back as an EV, using not a drop of gas. Sunday I'll drive it a hundred miles to a mountain resort. That's out of plug-in range, but it'll still get above 40 mpg as a hybrid. Overall, it's averaged 65 mpg for its 60,000-mile life. In my coal-heavy electrical grid, that's roughly equal to the CO2 emissions of a pure EV. I bought it new and loaded for $20k net after tax breaks, on a zero-percent loan. Can I get that deal on a new EV today, please?
Slouching into retirement, I don't commute. Many days I stay within the car's 20-mile EV range. I don't drive enough to make good use of a long-range EV, with its 1000-pound battery. My Ford's EV battery is only 250 lbs. Thus you can make four PHEVs for the battery material investment in one EV. If that EV replaces a 30 mpg car, it saves 33 gallons of gas per thousand miles of driving. In contrast, four PHEVs getting 60 mpg each, open the same drive, would together save 66 gallons. Almost twice the fuel and pollution savings as a single EV. And the cars are cheaper and more accessible; EV prices are currently averaging more than $10,000 over other cars.
Rushing into EVs is a mistake. We can accomplish more by hybridizing the real gas-guzzlers, such as delivery and postal trucks and railroad locomotives, than by nagging hybrid drivers into EVs they don't want or need.
I don't think there is any pressure or 'nagging' anyone to buy anything. There are choices, and yes you are 100% right- a PHEV may be the best choice for you.
For us an EV with the right range would be great- lot's of 30-60 miles daily trips and occasionally travel 75-120 miles to adjacent towns- Butte, Bozeman, Great Falls MT. EV with good range would totally work, 75% of our driving.
But we also travel several times a year thousands of miles in a 3/4 ton truck with a truck camper. ICE all the way.
Consumer choices are GREAT. Let the market dictate the options out there.
If all government meddling was eliminated, common sense would probably urge people to :
[] demand electric traction rail for 90% of all land transport,
[] and tolerate ICEs, Hybrids, and BEVs for the remaining 10%.
- - -
However, that would have dire consequences for the special interest hegemony that gained great wealth from the destruction of the railroad option.
- - -
And the great Anthropogenic Climate Change Hoaxers would be shown up as frauds, too.
Yes, I'm excommunicated as a heretic from the Church of the Warming Planet.
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Make mine a PHEV!
