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When you(Or anyone) choose to be married in a church or by a pastor/minister/whatever.. Then it does become a religious issue.
I do understand what Furman is referring to.. And this will likely happen, if it hasn't somewhere in the country already.. A homosexual couple will have a pastor that refuses to allow them to wed in the church, or refuses to preside over their wedding and winds up suing.
"The church" probably should have the right to refuse to provide usage of its grounds on the grounds that it objects to homosexual marriages.
I found it odd that my grandmothers pastor (Presbyterian, which are generally pretty laid back) refuses to perform a marriage ceremony for someone who has been divorced. And, you know.. I have to look at that as his right, and his choice. So, I would have to expand his right to refuse to apply to homosexual marriages.
Not that I would agree with him on it, but.. Why should he be forced to accept gay marriage while people don't have to accept his views?
Why someone would sue trying to force someone who doesn't want to marry them to perform the ceremony or use the church vs just finding someone who doesn't have any problem doing it, I don't know.. But I'll bet it will happen.
When you(Or anyone) choose to be married in a church or by a pastor/minister/whatever.. Then it does become a religious issue.
I do understand what Furman is referring to.. And this will likely happen, if it hasn't somewhere in the country already.. A homosexual couple will have a pastor that refuses to allow them to wed in the church, or refuses to preside over their wedding and winds up suing.
"The church" probably should have the right to refuse to provide usage of its grounds on the grounds that it objects to homosexual marriages.
I found it odd that my grandmothers pastor (Presbyterian, which are generally pretty laid back) refuses to perform a marriage ceremony for someone who has been divorced. And, you know.. I have to look at that as his right, and his choice. So, I would have to expand his right to refuse to apply to homosexual marriages.
Not that I would agree with him on it, but.. Why should he be forced to accept gay marriage while people don't have to accept his views?
Why someone would sue trying to force someone who doesn't want to marry them to perform the ceremony or use the church vs just finding someone who doesn't have any problem doing it, I don't know.. But I'll bet it will happen.
I agree, and while I fully support marriage equality, I also agree that a church shouldn't have to perform ceremonies it doesn't agree with. IIRC NY actually got their bipartisan marriage equality law passed with that caveat.
Furman,
Marriage isn't a religious issue.
If it was, the people who would be married would be married
only by their religious church. What ever religion you are.
Marriage is a legal state issue. Not religious.
An atheist has the right to get married by the state they live in.
SO, since there is suppose to be a seperation of church and state,
just for this reason, the state has the right to rule by law whatever
that state wants to be the laws of marriage there.
It wasn't that long ago that a mixed race couple were not allowed
to get a marriage license.
That has legally changed.
Eventually, all the states will be forced to allow 2 human beings to
get legally married.
Some states take longer than others, but someday it will happen.
So, trying to get an answer to my first question, was marriage first defined by man or by God? Did not God first define marriage and then man came along and ruined it? I am thinking that God also defined the grounds for divorce. Of course, one has to believe in God to consider these questions. I am not implying anything at all here and please know I am not judging anyone here. I am just asking the question. The way I look at this issue is, everyone just needs someone to love and someone to love them. If it happens to be someone of the same sex, what business is it of mine? It's that simple. I have never understood my fellow Christians that condemn and judge homosexuality, but forget the passage found in Proverbs 6:16-19. Believe me, we need to look at ourselves, not others. Sowing discord among the brothers (verse 19) is rampant in churches. So is divorce. We don't need to worry about two loving men or two loving women marrying each other. We need to show love, not hate.
16There are six things that the LORD hates,
seven that are an abomination to him:
17haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
18a heart that devises wicked plans,
feet that make haste to run to evil,
19a false witness who breathes out lies,
and one who sows discord among brothers.
So, trying to get an answer to my first question, was marriage first defined by man or by God?
The first thing you need to realize is that your religion is very young, as it was only invented in the Middle East in fairly modern times, after thousands upon thousands of prior civilizations around the entire world existed for millennia before your religion came about. If the history of humanity was laid out on a calendar, your religion was only created the last second of the last day of the last month, just like Islam created out of the same region.
The most important thing to consider is that other people do not automatically share your religious beliefs, anymore than you share theirs. Asking all encompassing questions about what your god approves of while assuming that everyone reading this believes in your god, is quite presumptuous.
If your church wants to turn people away based on hate, let them. It only serves to push more people away from bigotry and hate, an in the long run, that is a great thing. Personally I could not in good conscience belong to a group like this based on their "evil" teachings full of veiled hate.
The issue has nothing to do with religion, it is a civil rights matter.
The first thing you need to realize is that your religion is very young, as it was only invented in the Middle East in fairly modern times, after thousands upon thousands of prior civilizations around the entire world existed for millennia before your religion came about. If the history of humanity was laid out on a calendar, your religion was only created the last second of the last day of the last month, just like Islam created out of the same region.
The most important thing to consider is that other people do not automatically share your religious beliefs, anymore than you share theirs. Asking all encompassing questions about what your god approves of while assuming that everyone reading this believes in your god, is quite presumptuous.
If your church wants to turn people away based on hate, let them. It only serves to push more people away from bigotry and hate, an in the long run, that is a great thing. Personally I could not in good conscience belong to a group like this based on their "evil" teachings full of veiled hate.
The issue has nothing to do with religion, it is a civil rights matter.
We will agree to disagree, but I hope with mutual respect. What is religion? What are you referring to? Religion is and of itself is not good. What I have is not a religion. What I have is a personal relationship with Christ. God created man, thus He has been and always will be. God did not create man to worship in a "religious way". He created man to worship Him. Having said that, I understand your thoughts and your opinions. I am disappointed you did not get my points, which are of love, not hate.
By the way, the word religion is used only seven times in the Bible. Six of those times refer to religion as negative. I heard someone say that religion will take one to Hell. Christ will take one to Heaven. There is only one positive mention of religion in the Bible. It comes from James 1:27. "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world." That is the only religion I hope I have. If only all mankind could have religion like what is in this verse. Can you imagine how much better off we would be?
I guess I have said enough. Peace and love to you.
The entire premise of a person, group of people or a whole society saying what God likes and dislikes is a crock. Each person who believes in God has the right to believe as they will about what God expects of them and wishes for them.
We will agree to disagree, but I hope with mutual respect. What is religion? What are you referring to? Religion is and of itself is not good. What I have is not a religion. What I have is a personal relationship with Christ. God created man, thus He has been and always will be. God did not create man to worship in a "religious way". He created man to worship Him. Having said that, I understand your thoughts and your opinions. I am disappointed you did not get my points, which are of love, not hate.
By the way, the word religion is used only seven times in the Bible. Six of those times refer to religion as negative. I heard someone say that religion will take one to Hell. Christ will take one to Heaven. There is only one positive mention of religion in the Bible. It comes from James 1:27. "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world." That is the only religion I hope I have. If only all mankind could have religion like what is in this verse. Can you imagine how much better off we would be?
I guess I have said enough. Peace and love to you.
The religion that you adhere to.
No one is here to listen to preaching or listen to bible quotes regarding your own personal faith. You still do not understand that you live in a mixed culture and the bible quotes you post here have zero bearing on people who do not belong to your own belief or religious system.
No one is here to listen to preaching or listen to bible quotes regarding your own personal faith. You still do not understand that you live in a mixed culture and the bible quotes you post here have zero bearing on people who do not belong to your own belief or religious system.
Once again, this is a civil rights issue.
So nice of you to speak for everyone here as well as to why we're here and that we have no interest in what he has to say.
Personally, I don't particularly put any faith in quotes from a book that has been through so many translations.. That is basically like me paraphrasing the Emancipation Proclamation and saying "That's the word of Abraham Lincoln".. No.. It's not. Might be close, but there's going to be things different. The general message may come through, but relying on a direct quote.. Not so much.
But your attitude is the nearing the peak of hypocrisy and arrogance.
If he doesn't agree with you, he's a homophobe and intolerant. If you don't agree with him, that's perfectly fine. Tolerate doesn't mean agree with or like it means put up with it. He does have to tolerate gay marriage. He does not have to agree with it or like it. He does have to accept it, he doesn't have to blindly accept it and not push for change. I don't think that's the way it should go, but..
To you, it is a civil rights issue. To him, it is a religious issue.
I don't speak for everyone else here, but I will say neither you or anyone else speaks for me.
So nice of you to speak for everyone here as well as to why we're here and that we have no interest in what he has to say.
Personally, I don't particularly put any faith in quotes from a book that has been through so many translations.. That is basically like me paraphrasing the Emancipation Proclamation and saying "That's the word of Abraham Lincoln".. No.. It's not. Might be close, but there's going to be things different. The general message may come through, but relying on a direct quote.. Not so much.
But your attitude is the nearing the peak of hypocrisy and arrogance.
If he doesn't agree with you, he's a homophobe and intolerant. If you don't agree with him, that's perfectly fine. Tolerate doesn't mean agree with or like it means put up with it. He does have to tolerate gay marriage. He does not have to agree with it or like it. He does have to accept it, he doesn't have to blindly accept it and not push for change. I don't think that's the way it should go, but..
To you, it is a civil rights issue. To him, it is a religious issue.
I don't speak for everyone else here, but I will say neither you or anyone else speaks for me.
If you are here to listen to bible quotes, then by all means, go at it
"If only all mankind could have religion like what is in this verse." Is what the previous poster said. How presumptuous of him to assume everyone needs his religion. He does not speak for everyone either. All of mankind does not need religion, what we need is more good parents, and loving, ethical people who do not separate fellow humans into compartments based on religious beliefs.
As the thread continues, remember this is a local forum - you should discuss local issues here. If you want to debate marriage in general, or maybe marriage from the bible side - there are other, general forums for that.
Yac.
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