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I was watching a show about Lincoln's death. They were trying to find some DNA to see if they could prove he had some genetic disorder. It was pretty interesting.
They talked about how, back then, when a famous person died, people wanted a momento. Some people took clips of his hair (you can only get DNA from hair follicles, so a clip of hair did not help) and people had souvenirs covered in Lincoln's blood. Some actress at the theater had cradled Lincoln's head in her lap and had blood all over her dress. Afterward she would show off the dress and the stain at the party. The scientists looked for DNA on a souvenir made from that dress. There was blood on it, but not enough for DNA. I don't want to give away the ending of the show, though.
Anyway, wearing a bloody dress to a party and having Lincoln's blood hanging on the walls seems macabre to me. However, they said that people were used to death back then. Death was a part of life.
I know people talk about how we are becoming less sensitive to death because of what we see on TV and in video games. However, looking at some of these old families, some lost half or more of their children. People died young, women especially. Cholera could come through a town and wipeout all the children and even adults.
If that had happened to me, I would have been insane probably. Actually, Robert Lincoln had his mother committed in her final years. However, watching that show it seemed like people took out their grief the normal way but also through grabbing up souvenirs and making a show of it sometimes. That seems odd to me.
Today when a child does it is a tragedy. It almost seems like back then it wasn't a surprise. Probably half or more of the families I've come across lost at least one child to some disease. Some lost three or four children in a row.
I would think after a while you wouldn't be able to grieve anymore. How would you deal with so much death all the time?
Were our ancestors tougher than us when it came to death? Or was their way of grieving unhealthy because it didn't seem to perhaps be as strong as grieving over death usually is today?
I think that our ancestors expected that at least some of their children would die young, so they were very resigned about it. I do not think that they grieved any less, they just didn't have the luxury of allowing their grief to take over and run its natural course. Young children still needed to be tended to, a family still needed to be fed, household chores couldn't wait for too long. Life was already hard, so anything which upset the normal daily routine for too long would only make getting back to normal life all that much harder.
In our modern times with medical advances it is considered a rational and normal belief that we will actually outlive our children, as it should be. We are given time off from work to grieve, and modern conveniences don't make doing the laundry or preparing a meal seem as all important.
....Were our ancestors tougher than us when it came to death? Or was their way of grieving unhealthy because it didn't seem to perhaps be as strong as grieving over death usually is today?
Just wondering your opinions. Thanks.
My ideas are rather like Cyanna's.
Going back to the title of this thread: Were our ancestors less sensitive to death?
I would say they were far more realistic than we are. Infant deaths especially were frequent for one thing, and children were often many. How much carrying on should you do for three dead children in a family of twelve?
Work was hard and very time consuming...especially for the majority of the population who were engaged in farming. I imagine that they cared for about those who died, but I also think they put it in the perspective of their times...death was frequent, life was short, put it behind you and get on with life.
In the same way widows and widowers remarried quickly, often because they had young children that needed taking care of. I think this really illustrates the idea of a spouse as a helpmate, i.e. in the original sense of suitable helper.
And what for want of a better word I would call "styles" of sensibilty change and vary not only from era to ear, but from group to group and social class, etc. My mother was aghast when our next door neighbor's Sicilian-American husband died suddenly in the 1950's and his widow had a photo taken of him in his coffin and kept a framed copy on the living room wall.
But I never heard any of my Sicilian friends comment on it. And, of course, in the previous century staid, conservative Protestant families sometimes had portraits of the dead taken.
The Lincoln story reminded me of something similar I read many years ago. I can remember reading that when Mary Queen of Scots was beheaded her ladies-in-waiting were kept back from attending to her corpse because the authorities present were afraid that they would purposely drag their skirts in her blood or dip in a handkerchief as relics of the event.
Modern day Americans consider old age, disease and death as abnormal things. This make the whole culture delusional in my estimation. We deny the realities as long as possible, and then we theatrically dramatize them when we inevitably have to face them. So, I guess I'm saying I think we are loonies.
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Originally Posted by kevxu
My ideas are rather like Cyanna's.
Going back to the title of this thread: Were our ancestors less sensitive to death?
I would say they were far more realistic than we are. Infant deaths especially were frequent for one thing, and children were often many. How much carrying on should you do for three dead children in a family of twelve?
Work was hard and very time consuming...especially for the majority of the population who were engaged in farming. I imagine that they cared for about those who died, but I also think they put it in the perspective of their times...death was frequent, life was short, put it behind you and get on with life.
In the same way widows and widowers remarried quickly, often because they had young children that needed taking care of. I think this really illustrates the idea of a spouse as a helpmate, i.e. in the original sense of suitable helper.
And what for want of a better word I would call "styles" of sensibilty change and vary not only from era to ear, but from group to group and social class, etc. My mother was aghast when our next door neighbor's Sicilian-American husband died suddenly in the 1950's and his widow had a photo taken of him in his coffin and kept a framed copy on the living room wall.
But I never heard any of my Sicilian friends comment on it. And, of course, in the previous century staid, conservative Protestant families sometimes had portraits of the dead taken.
The Lincoln story reminded me of something similar I read many years ago. I can remember reading that when Mary Queen of Scots was beheaded her ladies-in-waiting were kept back from attending to her corpse because the authorities present were afraid that they would purposely drag their skirts in her blood or dip in a handkerchief as relics of the event.
Modern day Americans consider old age, disease and death as abnormal things. This make the whole culture delusional in my estimation. We deny the realities as long as possible, and then we theatrically dramatize them when we inevitably have to face them. So, I guess I'm saying I think we are loonies.
Well said. I tried hard to compose a post about this, and it all just came back to the idea that there's a growing disconnect between our actual inner spiritual lives and the spiritual facades we put up, hoping that if no one sees our sins, then they don't exist. But we all know on some level how false this is. I think this is the cause of spiritual dissonance -- the "loony" factor.
I'm not religious and I don't believe in sin the way religious people seem to. I simply treat people the way I want to be treated. The loony factor comes when one just goes ahead and sins and then banks on absolution. To me, that's like un-ringing the bell. Can't be done. Just don't ring the damn thing in the first place.
Karma, conscience -- whatever you call it. I want my slate to be clean so I don't fear death. I think, generally, the happiest people I know and those who most easily accept mortality feel something similar to what I feel. You're born, you work at not fouling up your own life -- you don't s**t in your own nest -- and then you die. If you don't go through life lying to yourself and others about who you are, then death isn't something to be feared.
I don't know how much sense this makes to anyone but myself, but then nobody is going to die my death but me.
Our ancestors were pretty barbaric. If someone accused someone else of being a witch, many were eager to burn the accused at the stake. Tens of thousands were burned at the stake largely because of an accusation.
The Roman coliseum would hold popular spectacles were in tens of thousands of beautiful, wild animals would be publicly butchered while the crowds, male and female alike, screamed their approval.
As recently as the 40's, there were many nationalists who wanted to assassinate Yamamoto because he did not approve of invading China or attacking the US.
We still have many barbarians in our midst. Look at the popularity of the Bushbarians. They brought BACK torture for crying out loud. I could make anybody admit to anything through torture. Its an excuse to be barbarian....and torture people.
All of our presidents of the past few decades have lived in a state of having blood up to their elbows. I don't think they necessarily wanted it that way, but their masters insist.
I recently read that there are 30,000 murders/year in the US.
I know people talk about how we are becoming less sensitive to death because of what we see on TV and in video games.
I don't think it's so much that we are becoming desensitized to death as much as we are becoming desensitized to violence.
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Anyway, wearing a bloody dress to a party and having Lincoln's blood hanging on the walls seems macabre to me.
People have always had a fascination with the morbid. I don't see this as much different from the people that buy Gacy's clown pictures, write fan mail to Manson, or tour places where horrific murders have occurred.
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However, they said that people were used to death back then. Death was a part of life.
If you think about it it wasn't all that long ago that families still lost a lot of children. My friends mother lost several children back in the forties. My grandmother had more children die than survive back in the early thirties. Most rural people still delivered their babies at home and doctors and hospitals weren't readily available to them. I think it was just an accepted fact of life, you knew that all your children would probably not survive. When they did survive it was a blessing, when they didn't, it didn't come as a horrible, unexpected tragedy.
When someone died the family members and neighbors would come together to attend the deceased. People were more familiar with the stages of death, so it wasn't as scary to them as it is to many people today. I think this is was much healthier attitude personally.
A wise genealogist "cousin" once told me that his mother told him that people were different in the past. Not to judge them, not to always try to understand them.
Just to add a little to what the other posters have said, I also think they developed black humor to cope with all the death. Jokes about dead people and death related subjects that we, today, would not even approve of and would think to be in bad taste.
I think people had more coping mechanisms than we do today. People of today would have fallen apart but in the past no one could afford to do that. People had to keep going no matter what. So, joke about it or totally put it out of your mind or whatever you have to do to get by.
My grandfather, at age 13, lost his oldest brother at age 20, next year he lost his other brother at age 19, the next year he lost his mother! I don't know how you cope with that but he did. He waited there until his father had died and his two younger sisters were married and then he came to this country and never looked back. We were not allowed to ask him about England.
Yet, he was the sanest person I have ever known--and funny and loving and a truly wonderful grandfather. (I hate to say this but he actually took my favorite pet chicken, hung it on a tree and lopped the head off right in front of me and they ate it for supper. He also drowned unwanted kittens.) It seems strange to me that the two types of behavior could exist in the same person. Death? Perhaps they were hardened to it.
Our ancestors were pretty barbaric. If someone accused someone else of being a witch, many were eager to burn the accused at the stake. Tens of thousands were burned at the stake largely because of an accusation.
The Roman coliseum would hold popular spectacles were in tens of thousands of beautiful, wild animals would be publicly butchered while the crowds, male and female alike, screamed their approval.
As recently as the 40's, there were many nationalists who wanted to assassinate Yamamoto because he did not approve of invading China or attacking the US.
We still have many barbarians in our midst. Look at the popularity of the Bushbarians. They brought BACK torture for crying out loud. I could make anybody admit to anything through torture. Its an excuse to be barbarian....and torture people.
All of our presidents of the past few decades have lived in a state of having blood up to their elbows. I don't think they necessarily wanted it that way, but their masters insist.
I recently read that there are 30,000 murders/year in the US.
Here's a wake up. People still do this. Watch the news. Mankind can be incredibly cruel...but still people are capable of extreme kindness and caring as well.
I work in long term care where people are dying all the time. You get to know and connect with men and women from all walks of life as they face their final days. And after several close family deaths of my own it still amazes me how many average people put their heads in the sand and keep death at an arm's length; afraid to talk about it, shunning greiving people, afraid to even touch a dead loved one's body.
Our ancestors had no choice but face death first hand, cleaning and preparing loved ones for burial or making other arrangements. I see more sensitivity in other cultures whose beliefs mandate personal care of the dead. These people are generally more connected to life. Yes, they can still be capable of great barbarism, but also great tenderness too.
Neanderthal burials were found with flowers arranged around the body in repose. All people have death in common as well as life. Acceptance of this and the emphasis on a higher spirituality has been the pinnacle of mankind's greatest ideals.
Certainly if you look at a old cemetray and the numbers of families that losss children before age of 5 then you have to conclude that they were more use to death.
Also remember that life expectancy wasn't what it is today. Even in the 1920's, 70 and 80 year olds were more the exception than the rule. I only had one great grandparent that survived beyond the age of 50. Two of my grandparents died before I was even born, at 55 and 57 years of age. The influenza epidemic was tragic and took many who we would classify as "youngsters" now.
There was definitely a lot more death at younger ages than we are accustomed to now.
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