Quality Control of Taiwan (ammo, guns) (rifle, sale, 308, AR-15)
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As some might have come across in other posts of mine, I am limited from buying that stuff which is made in Russia. It's just the deal I have with those who allow me to use their facilities, so don't go there trying to argue the why of it.
I have seen that Wolf Gold has that ammo made in Taiwan, though, and that may be possible for me to buy at a lower price.
BUT.....what's the quality control for ammo and, if any, guns made there? Is it lousy and to be avoided at all costs or is it the best stuff ever made?
I thought all Russian ammo was made in Tula and just rebranded with different names.
What weapon is this for? You are dealing with steel ammo I assume, which many don't like in there AR's. Specific for Wolf Gold Taiwan, haven't heard any specific complaints from my various gun site lurkings.
In general I have found for example tools made in Taiwan to be decent quality and a good value - maybe 80% as good as Snap-On for 50% of the price.
As to ammo made there, hey, buy a couple of boxes and try it out. I doubt you will find it lousy, but I doubt you will find it as good as the better brands of American and European match ammo. Of course we need to know what you mean by "good" - you mean runs OK in the gun, gives decent "combat level" accuracy of say 3-4 MOA, do you have a specific velocity/energy criterion, do you want match level accuracy crowding 1 MOA, do you specifically want the long heavy bullets intended for fast-twist barrels, do you want varmint bullets with hollow point and fast expansion?
If you want a really good supply of really good ammo, get yourself a Dillon press and have at it. You have been a good girl, consider it an early Christmas present to yourself. Whatever you mean by "good", you can load 'em the way you want 'em.
In general I have found for example tools made in Taiwan to be decent quality and a good value - maybe 80% as good as Snap-On for 50% of the price.
As to ammo made there, hey, buy a couple of boxes and try it out. I doubt you will find it lousy, but I doubt you will find it as good as the better brands of American and European match ammo. Of course we need to know what you mean by "good" - you mean runs OK in the gun, gives decent "combat level" accuracy of say 3-4 MOA, do you have a specific velocity/energy criterion, do you want match level accuracy crowding 1 MOA, do you specifically want the long heavy bullets intended for fast-twist barrels, do you want varmint bullets with hollow point and fast expansion?
If you want a really good supply of really good ammo, get yourself a Dillon press and have at it. You have been a good girl, consider it an early Christmas present to yourself. Whatever you mean by "good", you can load 'em the way you want 'em.
Brass, out of Taiwan. I won't shoot steel casings (if I have a choice). As a communist fighting country, stuff out of Taiwan shouldn't conflict with my agreement at all, but there is still the question of quality.
My requirements of accuracy are simple; being able to hit the paper man at 300-500 yards. If when I pull the trigger I'm on his center, I want that round to hit him somewhere in his trunk. I'm not shooting competition, I am not hunting, I am just maintaining (or improving on) my military skills. I shoot standing, have never used a scope, and am using a sling. Of course, if at 100 yards (the limit of the range I use), I want the round to land essentially where I am sighted when I pull the trigger.
These days for AR, all I'm shooting is FMJ and that's where the bulk of ammo lies. If I ever take up hunting, then I probably won't be buying soft nose in bulk. Finally, after decades of shooting, I never learned what twist of the barrel meant or what was important. I suppose everyone who taught me was concerned with mass production and whatever came off the rack.
Basically about the quality control, I want to know what is the likelihood when I pull the trigger if it will go bang or ping or boom or Pfft (the round part way down the barrel). I don't want stuff that is likely to have the extracter pull the bottom off the casing (there's some German stuff out there currently, cheap, but the bottom has been brushed to take the markings off it and I'm avoiding it for that fear.
I want good stuff that won't jam the bolt closed. Had that happen with the -10 on the range and due to safety requirements, I couldn't slam the butt to the deck to clear it. The range people had to come out with a tool that hooked into the bolt carrier and yank it back with manpower. If I'm using ammo without a good reputation and that happened a few times again, I'm sure it won't help my reputation.
I won't touch ammo made in India for its reputation of poor quality control.
So I am asking, what's Taiwan's reputation, be it for Wolf Gold or not? Ie, it's not just about Wolf Gold. According to some research I did last night, at one time, Wolf Gold was done by Prvi Partizan out of Serbia (once upon a time) and hey, if it is done by them, that's great!
So what's Taiwan reputation in these matters?
As far as the Dillon press goes, I'll take a look at it. Got to run.
Looking for the cheapest prices on the internet for ammo is an act of futility. While you might get a decent price, the freight will push the price up so bad you're better off buying it local. Same with bullets if reloading. You're shipping lead and only paper is more dense and heavy. Since you're around the San Antonio area as I recall, you need to get with a gunshop that will work with you on price. I'd suggest Powderhorn on Loop 410 between Hwy 90 and Marbach on the inside of the loop. The owners name is David Day. His dad, Bob Day, was one of the best gunsmiths in Texas for the Browning High Power and 1911's. His guns are still legendary. David is a very personable kinda guy and will work with you. The shop is closed on Mondays like most other gunshops. Go by the shop and introduce yourself and chat with him about what you're looking for. If he doesn't have it, he will order it for you. He usually has case lots of 223 in stock and will deal on it. If you end up buying ammo with brass casings, save it for the salvage center on the northside. They're paying about 20 bucks a thousand for 223.
Looking for the cheapest prices on the internet for ammo is an act of futility. While you might get a decent price, the freight will push the price up so bad you're better off buying it local. Same with bullets if reloading. You're shipping lead and only paper is more dense and heavy. Since you're around the San Antonio area as I recall, you need to get with a gunshop that will work with you on price. I'd suggest Powderhorn on Loop 410 between Hwy 90 and Marbach on the inside of the loop. The owners name is David Day. His dad, Bob Day, was one of the best gunsmiths in Texas for the Browning High Power and 1911's. His guns are still legendary. David is a very personable kinda guy and will work with you. The shop is closed on Mondays like most other gunshops. Go by the shop and introduce yourself and chat with him about what you're looking for. If he doesn't have it, he will order it for you. He usually has case lots of 223 in stock and will deal on it. If you end up buying ammo with brass casings, save it for the salvage center on the northside. They're paying about 20 bucks a thousand for 223.
I do not agree to an extent.
During the ammo shortage, when I shot at my range, I would use their ammo instead of pulling from my stock since I knew they would always have a supply. It also shot my range cost up, having to pay $30-55 for each visit. Since I had a range membership already and wasn't paying for time, that meant I was essentially paying $20+ for a box of ammo, probably in excess of 50 cents a round.
The shipping on my rifle ammo was $27.35 which is not that much. That's like 7 DVDs from Amazon (what I also buy a lot of), even from the UK. The tax on both ammo and shipping was a slight gut punch, but really only about $2.50 difference that what I would have paid if I bought at a store and didn't have to pay shipping.
So a case would cost $230, before tax.....assuming they had a case. As it was, they only have 7 boxes on stock.
I bought a case of Sellier & Bellot (I would buy either brand) at $185.+ and even at the full shipping cost of $36.24 (there were two other cases of different calibers in the order), it still undercuts the local cost by $8.47.
Once upon a time, I bought often from Collins Cartridge Co, Conroe, TX 77301-4071 at the gun shows and had a great relationship with them. It was probably because of my honesty when they made a mistake and charged my half for a case. When I discovered the error later on, away from their table, I went back to them and paid the full price. After that, they would give me discounts....and advice about not buying ammo made in India.
But the old man died a few years back and the son does not know me.
I do like using local merchants, family companies for affairs, but right now my arrangement for the Net when it comes to guns and ammo works pretty well for me.......and it is using, in part, an old relationship with a local merchant.
You might just buy say 100 rounds from Sportsman's Supply or similar catalog vendors and see how the Wolf Gold shoots for you, before springing for a 1000 round batch.
In general, like I said, I have found the quality of Taiwan made products to be at least good, sometimes excellent.
As much as you like to shoot, if you can spare the time, reloading/handloading seems to me would make sense for you.
Bit off topic but you mention Aguila above - in my experience they make good ammo as well. They make some interesting .22 rimfire specialty rounds. They make decent .223 and .308 bulk FMJ ammo too.
You might just buy say 100 rounds from Sportsman's Supply or similar catalog vendors and see how the Wolf Gold shoots for you, before springing for a 1000 round batch.
In general, like I said, I have found the quality of Taiwan made products to be at least good, sometimes excellent.
As much as you like to shoot, if you can spare the time, reloading/handloading seems to me would make sense for you.
Bit off topic but you mention Aguila above - in my experience they make good ammo as well. They make some interesting .22 rimfire specialty rounds. They make decent .223 and .308 bulk FMJ ammo too.
Reasonable advice to test small before buying big......for it may be years before I open up a case. I think I still have two cases of the WW III surplus bought from Collins lying around.
I took a look at the Dillon site and the XL650 looks wonderful, but three things. Doing a little bit of research on it, just a little, it seems as a totally innocent babe in the woods, I should do a lot more research before getting into something like that. Secondly, somewhere in my moving life (out of apartments, into a temporary house, next into my permanent house), is my ex sister in law's father's reloading equipment from probably the 70's or the 80's. So, perhaps, when I get settled in in the next year, I ought to take a look at that to see what I am getting into. Finally, with the current stocking of ammo and guns in view of the election, I'm getting a little cashed out at the current moment. The thing is of that buying reason, it might just as well apply to reloading equipment.
As said, I'll buy Aguila if the price is right. I can be very much a romantic about these things but cost often comes first. When I first got into .308, I bought a case of Israeli from a local gun store for $250 (oh, those were the glory days of prices!). IMI is still out there but is often too high in price for me to even consider, no matter how romantic I am. I'll buy Serbian, past South African, Brazilian, Italian, Czech, etc........but not Indian.
The wolf gold 223 from Taiwan is considered the best value for brass. When on sale it can be had for 30cents a round. Is this the ammo you were referring to?
Wolf Gold 223 from Taiwan is great ammo and the cheapest brass at the moment. I think this is the only ammo from Taiwan at the moment, at least in any meaningful quantity. Taiwan is considered on par with Japan in quality control. They are into that thing....what do you call it....something about obsession with quality. Named after the American who went to Japan after the war and consulted on manufacturing quality control.
The wolf gold 223 from Taiwan is considered the best value for brass. When on sale it can be had for 30cents a round. Is this the ammo you were referring to?
Wolf Gold 223 from Taiwan is great ammo and the cheapest brass at the moment. I think this is the only ammo from Taiwan at the moment, at least in any meaningful quantity. Taiwan is considered on par with Japan in quality control. They are into that thing....what do you call it....something about obsession with quality. Named after the American who went to Japan after the war and consulted on manufacturing quality control.
W. Edwards Deming. That name is etched in my memory from my engineering technology undergrad in the 80's (as it was, I remembered him as William Charles Denning, but that was close enough to be able to look him up).
Back to Taiwan, what brought up this question was remembering that they had no copyright laws and that books over there, at least in the 70's where CHEAP!
Thank you all for the information. I need to take off for festival.
On the lighter side of things, I was testing out my bull whip, part of my costume, because it hadn't been wound properly.......and left myself with a 3.5 inch mark on me.......I wonder if anyone will believe my explanation.
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