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Could it run to the ocean front one day? Sure if Va Bch is stupid enough to buy into it but that day is years off if ever. Now even if Va Bch started breaking ground today the cost is estimated to be a billion dollars just to run the track from Newton Rd to the ocean front.
A billion flippin' dollars?! Makes me wonder how the great American railroad was ever constructed for the equivalent cost of the 1800s. Maybe because railroad workers weren't unionized? (Sorry, the wages & treatment I'm sure weren't grand, but on the reverse of the coin, they'd probably be paid $125/hr. today).
the Norfolk (Hampton?) University and Newtown Rd.?
Norfolk State. And they didn't even want it. Just another example of backwards thinking, which is especially sad considering it's supposed to be an institution of higher education.
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Originally Posted by JeffConn
The Norfolk line is a STARTER LINE! Yes, you have to start somewhere. The DC Metro started with a 4.6 mile line with 5 stations, and i'm sure there were the naysayers going "It doesn't go anywhere" there also. There are already preliminary talks about extending the Tide to the airport, NOB, the oceanfront, Portsmouth, Chesapeake, and to the Peninsula!
Buuuuuut, talk is cheap. If the starter line went places that mattered and was successful, then we would have better luck convincing the public it needs to be expanded. Unfortunately since it doesn't go much of any place, when it does get going it's going to most likely not be a great success.
With the scandal going on at HRT that's even more ammo for the people of "no."
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Originally Posted by djchriscruz
The DC metro helps alleviates the biggest complaint of NoVA/DC residents: TRAFFIC. There's barely any traffic in Norfolk except maybe a 30 min backup during rush hour. It's pretty easy to get in/out and around Norfolk by car and there are no tolls going into the city.
And when the tunnels first opened there was how much traffic? You can't base tomorrow off today. The tolls should have never been taken off the roads, either.
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Originally Posted by rtandc
Thrive? It will be lucky to survive. Norfolk is not Philly, Charlotte, Phoenix, Seattle, or San Diego and never will be with or without light rail. And the hopes of it running to ODU or the base one day...Just how is it supposed to get there? Every planner that has ever looked at this project has stated it is impossible to run it down Hampton Blvd.
How about: take out a lane of traffic in each direction on Hampton Blvd? Why should polluting cars have preferential treatment in going down the road and clogging it up for everyone else?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rtandc
Could it run to the ocean front one day? Sure if Va Bch is stupid enough to buy into it but that day is years off if ever. Now even if Va Bch started breaking ground today the cost is estimated to be a billion dollars just to run the track from Newton Rd to the ocean front.
They've already purchased the land from Norfolk Southern. I've not heard a billion, either. Do you have a source for that?
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Originally Posted by rtandc
People that want light rail talk about “Oh I can’t wait for it to run to cities like Chesapeake or across the water? Hello? Are you taking in your life time? If so I hope you are very young. Because again how is it going to get there? It’s not like there is some magical open space for the train to run from point A to point Z. It would require people’s homes and businesses be bought and torn down to obtain the right away space needed for the trains to operate. That would cost billions of dollars and take years in court just to settle the law suits to obtain the land even before the first piece of track is laid…
Look at Norfolk; the city had to spend over a million dollars in taxpayer money just to buy one small office building on York Street. Now times that by 100, or more like a 1000 or 5000 when you are talking about light rail running across Hampton Roads. One other thing to thing to think about, after light rail is built the money train does not stop running. Norfolk is expecting the 7 mile starter line to cost almost 7 million dollars a year just to operate…And we all know Norfolk and how they do their math, so if they expect 7 million a year you can bet it will be much more then that…..Where do you think that money is going to come from?
The purchasing of that building was a big mistake. They were scared about people walking onto the tracks and not seeing a train coming around the bend.
Seems to me a 6 or 8 foot high fence would have prevented them from walking across the tracks.
You wouldn't be spending the same amount on each property they would obtain, though.
The money comes from the same place it comes from the support the roads... taxes. Do you think gas taxes pay for everything that has to do with the roadways?
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Originally Posted by xGrendelx
There seems to be a lot of naysayers, that's for sure. However, amongst the people I associate with, we're all looking forward to it. I don't know if it will thrive. I don't know of any starter line that THRIVES. What would constitute a thriving line anyway? All I know is that I will use it. I think it's important to support your city's growth, especially if you deem it as positive growth. No, Norfolk is not Philadelphia or San Diego, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't provide descent public transit for its citizens. Size doesn't really have much to do with it. It's about efficiency. And light rail is efficient. That's been proven time and time again. Cities with fewer people than Norfolk have LRT systems similar to the Tide, and people ride them. Take Salt Lake City, for example. I've ridden their trains myself, and I wasn't the only one on it.
The bottom line is that public transit does not suit everyone's needs, and it seems that the people who don't use it don't understand the need for it.
I agree, I'm excited about it too, but at the same time I'm also disappointed because I know what's going to happen.
We could easily expand rail service into Portsmouth, Chespeake and Suffolk by using the tracks recently abandoned since the 164 tracks opened up.
Why are we giving sweetheart deals to big business and paying for the majority of things like building them a new railroad between 164 and screwing the citizens and saying there's no money to fix the roads or build other rail?? It makes no sense to me, but this will not be my problem for very much longer. I just hope the people of HR get a clue in the near future because if they don't it's going to be a very long, hard road ahead.
Have you seen what Light Rail does to other cities , causes growth to occur....it may seem like a waste now but 10 years form now when Norfolk is a thriving city you'll credit the Light Rail with part of that.... Look at Philly , Charlotte , Phoenix , Seattle , and San Diego....for systems that have generated positive results and those systems are still growing...
I think this is spot on.
It's one of the most progressive things a city can do. Initial costs are horrific, but long-term payback is fantastic. It really is an investment in the future.
It's one of the most progressive things a city can do. Initial costs are horrific, but long-term payback is fantastic. It really is an investment in the future.
Since your the First city in the Region to get LRT , you see the benefits hopefully come soon. Ie , alot of Developments , maybe a Green company relocation.... Ridership should start out small , but i wouldn't rule out it hitting 30,000 within 2 years.....
By 2:30 every afternoon, the Midtown Tunnel is backed up for several blocks. By 5 pm, it's backed up to 35th Street. It's just a nightmare.
Gas prices are going through the roof, and I think - despite all the expense - Norfolk's timing on this is great. I just wish the other cities had jumped on the bandwagon (or would that be boxcar?).
I am not against light rail I am just against this project because it was improperly done from the very start. I know people that want to see light rail love to use the excuse of either it helping with vehicle traffic in the area or that it can spur new business around the rail line. Neither of these will happen in this area even if Va Beach was to jump on board and continue the line to the ocean front. Out side of rush hour traffic is light for an area the size of Hampton Roads and the light rail track will not run to locations that employee the largest number of people so you will see no changes in any traffic patterns. Now as far as possible business expansion that also will be very limited. Why? Well look where the track will be running. The majority of the track will parallel the interstate so any major expansion can not happen just due to the fact that the area is land locked.
Hampton Roads could of had something special but the local leaders as always could not play nice together and back stabbed each other and Norfolk tried to prove a point to the other local leaders that it could complete a major undertaking such as light rail on it's own and picked the cheapest location to start light rail which they soon found out was also the worst location to start light rail. So Norfolk will get it's light rail starter track but by doing so set back any possible expansions for decades do to it's sloppy handling and financial dealings just to get the starter line built. So congrats to Norfolk for building it but at the same time congrats to Norfolk for screwing it up for everyone else
I thankfully take one of the last legal backways open, so I only wait about 10 minutes, but I can just imagine sitting in line that whole way.
The problem is, traffic is bad and yes, something must be done, but the Tide does nothing to help the traffic because it doesn't go where traffic is backed up.
I am not against light rail I am just against this project because it was improperly done from the very start. I know people that want to see light rail love to use the excuse of either it helping with vehicle traffic in the area or that it can spur new business around the rail line. Neither of these will happen ...
...local leaders that it could complete a major undertaking such as light rail on it's own and picked the cheapest location to start light rail which they soon found out was also the worst location to start light rail. So Norfolk will get it's light rail starter track but ...
WOW. Very well thought out, I'm sure there is at least some truth to what you're saying. Indeed, I heard local politics in Norfolk are pretty bad, we might as well have Rahm Emanuel or Hill-dawg here running things. And as far as location, intertube slap me if I'm wrong, but aren't the majority of these 'dangerous' areas? Yeah, yeah, I'm that guy.
For those of you who complain that the train goes nowhere significant, or where traffic problems are the worst, should consider the fact that successful numbers in ridership for this starter line could be what allows its expansion to those areas in the future. So consider riding it anyway. Go to Harbor Park to see the Tides play, but take the train. The next time you want to see a concert at the NorVa, Scope, or Chrysler Hall just take the train. Use it when you can and stop being bitter. Support the system in its infancy and let it grow to adulthood.
For those of you who complain that the train goes nowhere significant, or where traffic problems are the worst, should consider the fact that successful numbers in ridership for this starter line could be what allows its expansion to those areas in the future. So consider riding it anyway. Go to Harbor Park to see the Tides play, but take the train. The next time you want to see a concert at the NorVa, Scope, or Chrysler Hall just take the train. Use it when you can and stop being bitter. Support the system in its infancy and let it grow to adulthood.
xGrendelx in a fantasy world that may mean something but in real life ridership numbers will mean very little at this point for the Tide. The problem that Hampton Roads will face in the future is trying to convince the Federal government that expansion is possible for X number of dollars.
As I stated in my last post, Norfolk has screwed the whole Hampton Roads area over the cost on the starter line. Here is why. If you take the last 25 light rail projects that have been constructed since 1997 only three have exceeded their contract budget. Two had cost over runs while one expanded the scope of the whole project. The budget increases ranged from 6 to 17 percent and all were frown upon by both the Federal government and their local States for the cost over runs.
Now let’s look at Norfolk. Anyone that has lived in Hampton Roads area longer than five minutes knows this area has always been considered by the State to be the red headed step child area for budget/tax money compared to Northern Va. We see that every year when the State budget is completed. No surprises there. So this area does not get the State money in truly needs but is tossed a bone every few years.
Ok so Norfolk was tossed a bone by the Feds and the State to build this light rail starter line and everyone was excited. The Federal government money was to account for about half of the construction cost while the State and Norfolk were to contribute about 25% each. Now that sounded great until everyone found out that the true cost of building the starter line was going to be close to 50% over the budgeted amount, an unheard of cost over ride figure. And for Norfolk to stay just in the 50% over budget figure they had to cut many projects on the line they had in their original plans including one pedestrian safety feature that still has to be installed by 2014, at a cost of unknown millions of dollars.
So the bottom line is it does not matter if you are for or against light rail in Hampton Roads as our voices will not be heard. It all comes down to money. This area will be competing against every other city across the USA for limited Federal money for future projects including future light rail projects. How do you think it’s going to look when our local political representatives start asking for Federal money for future light rail projects after the blunder Norfolk just did….
There is an old saying that goes "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" and that may sound silly but this is how political moves are made. The Feds may offer more money years from now to expand light rail say into Va Bch but they are going to require the state of Va to put up more money for the project, in turn the State is going to require Va Bch to put up more of their local tax money for the project. Now who knows how the economy will be in 5-10 years but I can’t see how the city of Va Bch can spend millions of their tax payer’s money on a “wanted” project when it will have way to many “needed” projects by that time to worry about first thanks to todays poor ecomony and budget cuts. So again light rail may of worked in this area but that is an answer to a question we will not know for a very long time...
So for everyone that wants to blame the naysayers that are against light rail...Well you are blaming the wrong group of people. If you want to blame someone start with your local political leaders that are at City Hall in downtown Norfolk. They are the group of people that has prevented light rail from moving any further forward then just the starter line.
Last edited by rtandc; 02-28-2011 at 09:14 AM..
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