Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If that were the case - Honolulu is a bargain compared to somewhere like San Francisco.
Am I missing something? I guess I should say either more people working per household or similar number of people working more hours would lead to the same result in median household income. Either way I really don't understand your response could you elaborate?
Am I missing something? I guess I should say either more people working per household or similar number of people working more hours would lead to the same result in median household income. Either way I really don't understand your response could you elaborate?
Because if they have similar household income - rent in SF is astronomically higher and much more of a burden than Honolulu for a household. The point being - it is far more expensive for a household in San Francisco than Honolulu by quite a bit. This notion that Honolulu is the most expensive for a family is false. *note, I lived in San Francisco for 15 years and still maintain property in the city - SF is much more expensive than Honolulu.
Because if they have similar household income - rent in SF is astronomically higher and much more of a burden than Honolulu for a household. The point being - it is far more expensive for a household in San Francisco than Honolulu by quite a bit. This notion that Honolulu is the most expensive for a family is false. *note, I lived in San Francisco for 15 years and still maintain property in the city - SF is much more expensive than Honolulu.
As of November, 2014, average apartment rent within 10 miles of Honolulu, HI is $1936.
One bedroom apartments in Honolulu rent for $1613 a month on average and two bedroom apartment rents average $2169.
Yeah, that's fine. I'm not disagreeing with that, I'm just saying that people make less per hour in Honolulu and have larger households on average to get to that similar income number. So they likely either have more people working per household or more people working more than 40hr per week or both. So yes, in strict terms of household income/rent ratio SF is certainly more of a burden given the numbers you provided. But living with your parents in a 2br cinder block shack with no A/C is also different than two young roommates in a downtown SF apartment...
I don't care if HNL is the highest rental market in the country or not, that is an argument between you and HBH... Hawaii is the most expensive state most likely as a whole, but HNL is not the most expensive metro... although it is up there. HBH is giving state stats, you are giving city stats, so you both think you are right...
I'm sure Manhattan probably costs more than HNL as well. I'm also pretty sure that a median property in each of those areas probably looks quite different. I'm just trying to get you guys back on topic because I think this is an interesting thread.
Yeah, that's fine. I'm not disagreeing with that, I'm just saying that people make less per hour in Honolulu and have larger households on average to get to that similar income number. So they likely either have more people working per household or more people working more than 40hr per week.
I don't care if HNL is the highest rental market in the country or not, that is an argument between you and HBH... Hawaii is the most expensive state most likely as a whole, but HNL is not the most expensive metro... although it is up there. HBH is giving state stats, you are giving city stats, so you both think you are right...
I'm sure Manhattan probably costs more than HNL as well. I'm also pretty sure that a median property in each of those areas probably looks quite different. I'm just trying to get you guys back on topic because I think this is an interesting thread.
Household numbers in HNL are higher due to people having more children - not having a bunch of workers. People like to reproduce here in Hawaii.
The birthrate in HNL is nearly 15 per 1,000 and SF is under 12 per 1,000.
Household numbers in HNL are higher due to people having more children - not having a bunch of workers. People like to reproduce here in Hawaii.
The birthrate in HNL is nearly 15 per 1,000 and SF is under 12 per 1,000.
That's part of it... but not nearly all of it. A difference of 3 births per 1000 is not going to erase a .7 difference is household size. You tell me then... BLS data says median hourly wages are $18.18 in HNL and $24.67 in SF. How do you reconcile that with comparable household incomes? Either more people are working per household or people are working more hours. I don't see a third option.
SF is also unique because it is basically the epicenter of the tech industry with lots of young people with money driving the high end rentals. Inequality is much higher there. typical tech workers make over $100k. Either way, SF being worse doesn't fix the problem in HNL or make HNL affordable for most folks which is the issue this thread is supposed to be discussing.
That's part of it... but not nearly all of it. A difference of 3 births per 1000 is not going to erase a .7 difference is household size. You tell me then... BLS data says median hourly wages are $18.18 in HNL and $24.67 in SF. How do you reconcile that with comparable household incomes? Either more people are working per household or people are working more hours. I don't see a third option.
SF is also unique because it is basically the epicenter of the tech industry with lots of young people with money driving the high end rentals. Inequality is much higher there. typical tech workers make over $100k. Either way, SF being worse doesn't fix the problem in HNL or make HNL affordable for most folks which is the issue this thread is supposed to be discussing.
You can't make an exact correlation to households and median income.
Regardless - I'd reconcile it to more double income (husband/wife) incomes and a higher marriage rate than San Francisco.
You can't make an exact correlation to households and median income.
Regardless - I'd reconcile it to more double income (husband/wife) incomes and a higher marriage rate than San Francisco.
See its a repeat of the take off the shoes thing again. Everyone knows that Hawaii is more of an expensive place because wages are really lower, food, utilities and taxes are higher in Hawaii.
@UHgrad
You made your point. I was done awhile ago. You can only argue so long til give ache head.
You can't make an exact correlation to households and median income.
Regardless - I'd reconcile it to more double income (husband/wife) incomes and a higher marriage rate than San Francisco.
I didn't say there is an exact correlation, every metro is going to be a little different... kids cost money, taking care of parents costs money, energy costs vary, transportation costs vary, food costs vary, there are lots of variables.
But when hourly wages are 35% more in one place and median household incomes are the same there are only a couple of reasonable options. That's all I'm saying. There are either more hands throwing money in the pot or the same number of hands working a lot more hours.
Am I reading you right to say that you don't really think HNL has a cost of living problem? Or are you just saying it is not as bad as some other places? A lot of people argue that upzoning would help relieve some of the pressure on rentals in highly desirable locales? What do you think since you have experience with both SF and HNL?
Or are you just saying it is not as bad as some other places? A lot of people argue that upzoning would help relieve some of the pressure on rentals in highly desirable locales? What do you think since you have experience with both SF and HNL?
I'm saying it is far more expensive in San Francisco even with higher wages than Honolulu - and the notion that Honolulu is the most expensive is false.
The problem with SF and Oahu is space. Not enough land to build and to many people.
Personally, I'd like the height limits eliminated on Oahu - although, I'm not sure that would make housing prices go down. At the end of day it is all driven by supply and demand.
My opinion - regardless of you do - market forces take over and it will be always be expensive.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
