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I'm saying it is far more expensive in San Francisco even with higher wages than Honolulu - and the notion that Honolulu is the most expensive is false.
The problem with SF and Oahu is space. Not enough land to build and to many people.
Personally, I'd like the height limits eliminated on Oahu - although, I'm not sure that would make housing prices go down. At the end of day it is all driven by supply and demand.
My opinion - regardless of you do - market forces take over and it will be always be expensive.
Neither the article, the OP, or I ever said HNL was the most expensive. So that was just a beef with HBH... fair enough.
Overall I tend to agree with you on the rest of your assessment, although I'd hate to see a bunch of high rises create a concrete jungle with no ocean or mountain views to be found.
I'm curious what OpenD things about what I posted in regard to the viability of building actual affordable units and keeping them affordable (really WaikikiBoy said most of it before I did).
Overall I tend to agree with you on the rest of your assessment, although I'd hate to see a bunch of high rises create a concrete jungle with no ocean or mountain views to be found.
Higher buildings when done right enhance the view - not diminish it.
Look at the skyline in Chicago - Hong Kong - Singapore - Sydney - Miami - etc....
You need stunning architecture as the buildings rise higher........
I read the article, I guess my general response to you is that you are making quality of life arguments... and although I don't disagree with any of your statements about increased density, mixed-use developments, decreasing vehicle dependence etc... I don't see how that is going to bring rents down.
Sorry if I wasn't clear due to commingling separate thoughts... what will relieve the rental housing shortage is to build a lot more affordable rental housing. Nothing else will. Quantity is what's needed.
And what will make inexpensive rental housing livable, is to not just build blocks of faceless drab apartment buildings, as has been done with too much "public housing" in this country, which turn into ghettos because they are soul-suckers, but to configure inexpensive apartments into attractive little groupings and villages, etc. as I outlined before.
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It would certainly cut down on transportation costs (and time) for those who can live in walkable communities with access to public transit, employment centers, parks, beaches, restaurants etc... but people will be willing to pay more for that unit because their ancillary costs are lower.
You're overthinking this. If there are ENOUGH housing units available, normal market forces will apply. The current problem is that there is a VAST shortage of housing units, due to the chronic underbuilding- to-need that's gone on for decades, and that distorts the workings of the market.
Rents will naturally differentiate if consumers have a choice of values available. Using the old Sears Roebuck scale, people without a lot of money will seek among the Good places to live; mid-income people will seek among the Better places to live; while people with high income will seek out the Best. Obvious differentiators of value are size, location, amenities. For example, say, Good have picture windows, Better have sliding glass doors to balconette, Best have French Doors to full balcony. Good have single sink kitchen, plain counter, plain refrigerator; Better have double sinks, better counter, double door fridge; Best have double sink master bath, second bath. And so on.
And high density housing can be built that way. Lets add one more grade, a no-frills Basic, to serve the "working poor" who need to live somewhere, but don't make enough to afford Good. This has been the most underserved segment of our population, and corresponds to what the government calls "Affordable Housing" which is their code phrase for people making 80% of Poverty Level or less.
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If you do somehow designate affordable units, how do you decide who gets those "affordable" units? How do you keep them affordable when market forces would allow them to be rented for more?
Build enough housing, and differentiate it as I noted above, and it will happen naturally, as it has in the past all over the country with inexpensive neighborhoods, mid-priced neighborhoods, etc. In the case of what I'm calling Basic housing, which the government calls "Affordable Housing," it is fair to limit income, because that portion of the market is supported by favorable property tax breaks. And so it currently is, with the limit set at 80% of the Federal Poverty Level
Looking at this year's limits for two counties in Hawai'i, the maximum household income allowed and maximum rent allowed in housing that gives the owner tax breaks is as follows...
Honolulu County Median Income $82,650
1 person, max income $$53,700 - Effiency max rent $1,267
1 person, max income $53,700 - 1 BR max rent $780
4 persons, max income $76,650 - 2 BR max rent $950
Hawaii County Median Income $56,700
1 person, max income $37,200 - Effiency max rent $619
1 person, max income $37,200 - 1 BR max rent $780
4 persons, max income $53,100 - 2 BR max rent $950
I want to be clear, I don't disagree with smart development or the need for more units... I am just skeptical that it will drive prices down in the long run. And I think the people that wrote the article imply that as well.
As long as there is a shortage of housing, prices will remain artificially high. Build a little more housing, it will change nothing. Build a LOT more housing, so there is no longer an artificial shortage, and it will.
Neither the article, the OP, or I ever said HNL was the most expensive. So that was just a beef with HBH... fair enough.
Overall I tend to agree with you on the rest of your assessment, although I'd hate to see a bunch of high rises create a concrete jungle with no ocean or mountain views to be found.
I'm curious what OpenD things about what I posted in regard to the viability of building actual affordable units and keeping them affordable (really WaikikiBoy said most of it before I did).
I would agree with your assessment OpenD if it wasn't for the fact that time and time again any redevelopment or mass building goes to higher incomes. So how would this be any different then history? Further, how do you mass build housing without losing what is the character of Hawaii? Have you taken into consideration what would happen if you overdid it and then people realise that they can get beach and sun somewhere else for alot cheaper because thats what will be left if things goto far. What would happen to the market?
I was just talking to a potential customer yesterday that shared with me about being in the military and living in oahu during the 70s, 80s, 90s. Him and his wife just got back from visiting friends for a month. First thing he noticed was how the local culture was almost gone(his words not mine) How his bar was gone (trump bought up the area and built highrise luxury condos) And how some of his friends are considering moving to the mainland because they are starting to
Realise that the price of living in oahu just isnt worth it anymore.
Now you guys can hate me all you want but truthfully you know im not the only one who feels this way. Most people who do feel this way are those who have history to compare with current things.
Further, im not here to rain on your parade. I have issues like others with trust that greed won't win out in the end, thats my true beef with all this kinds of stuff. Im worried things go to far and you can't reverse something that is gone.
Further, im not here to rain on your parade. I have issues like others with trust that greed won't win out in the end, thats my true beef with all this kinds of stuff. Im worried things go to far and you can't reverse something that is gone.
You can't have it both ways... either you accept more homes being built for the real people who are here, or you accept more people not having homes.
You can't have it both ways... either you accept more homes being built for the real people who are here, or you accept more people not having homes.
Hmmm think of it this way, you can accept more homes being built for those living here if they goto those living here and still maintain the character of Hawaii. Its when you create mass gentrafication is when you lose local culture and Hawaii. Its simple. But any development will always hurt the aina or the views.
Last edited by hawaiian by heart; 12-10-2014 at 04:41 PM..
Reason: Find better softer words
I was just talking to a potential customer yesterday that shared with me about being in the military and living in oahu during the 70s, 80s, 90s. Him and his wife just got back from visiting friends for a month. First thing he noticed was how the local culture was almost gone(his words not mine)[/b] How his bar was gone (trump bought up the area and built highrise luxury condos) And how some of his friends are considering moving to the mainland because they are starting to
What a surprise.
Anyway, Trump Waikiki was not bought or developed by Donald Trump - it is just franchised, much like a Marriott. It sits where 2 very run down hotels used to be.
The bar gone - likely the Longboard, as that is the only one I can think of in that area - was actually razed when they refurbished the hotel where the Embassy Suites is now located - replaced, by Roy's - a local place.
It's already way too crowded on Oahu as it is. The roads and sewers are falling apart, traffic is only second to LA, water supply and solid waste management are an on-going concern. D.R. Horton is breaking ground on another 10,000+ new single family houses in Kapolei and the high density development for the train is underway. If higher rent can discourage people from moving to Hawaii or weed out the people that can't afford it, that's a positive trend. More wealth means more sustainability and a better quality of life. There is plenty of affordable housing, it just doesn't happen to be in Hawaii. Southern CA, Las Vegas and AZ are great alternatives. Affordable housing is available and millions of new immigrants are finding a way to thrive.
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