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I just don't see that big of difference in the "cultures". For example, a lot of little shops in Florida have a sign that says "We don't care how you did it up north". Here they practice Aloha, in Florida it was Southern Hospitality. In Columbus Ohio we called it Buckeye Hospitality. Here they say Mahalo, on the mainland they say thank you.
It's not the "culture" -- it's the newcomers (aka malihini) themselves. When the reality of life in Hawaiʻi differs too much from their preconceived notions, some folks have difficultly adapting. "People and Cultures of Hawaii: The Evolution of Culture and Ethnicity" edited by John F. McDermott and Naleen Andrade should be required reading for anyone contemplating a move to Hawaiʻi.
Alright, I have a 12 hour layover at LAX, so I ordered a copy of that book to read while I wait, mahalo for the suggestion. Amazon comments say it's "essential for anyone wanting to provide mental health services to Hawaiians or understand Hawaiians mental health needs", all psycho-social-whatevery. Sounds like neat stuff.
Spoiler
I should go back to college and become a sociologist for the heck of it. I took soc 101 in college and aced it, how hard could the rest of it be? Then I could annoy people with cynically obvious yet ultimately false observations that no one else knows enough about to call out while sipping my Starbucks latte and adjusting my hipster glasses, which is probably the best part of any not-an-actual-science science degree.
Is there a book like this for white people from the US? I bet it would manage to somehow be simultaneously both extremely boring and hilariously stereotypical. Like, did you ever notice how for Islanders there's all these different races, like Polynesians, Micronesians, Hawaiians, etc, yet for white people it's just "white people" even though there's dozens of different nations that they hail from? It's the same with black people in the US, they're just "black people", so they don't get a nationality. Technically we're all Americans, but then we aren't at the same time, because the natives were here first. Political correctness is confusing.
It's funny because it used to be that diversity was English and Americans and Irish and Russians and Italians, like, that was enough to be diverse because all those people were regarded as different, but now it's all just one big group of white people, and if you try to talk about your culture or anything it's looked down upon because you're the evil white devil slavemaster oppressor even if you came from a country that never owned slaves or if your ancestors came to the US after slavery ended. So it's fine with me personally that people are waking up to "racial reality", but I don't think they're going to like it if white people start doing the same. Might be some bad things happening once that starts, you know?
People crack me up. I just wish they'd stop killing each other over it. Violence leads to more violence. I mean, it gets things done, let's be honest. Anyone who's ever been threatened by a serious, armed criminal, and called the cops only to find them disinterested and an hour away, knows that violence has it's place even in the "civilized" world, but I think everyone else mostly wants to avoid it, and fostering bigotry in any direction is the wrong way to avoid it.
Segregation is making a quiet come back in disguise. In the news it's everywhere you look if you're willing to see it. That's where things are headed. Third-wave feminists want "safe spaces" that are male-free, BlackLivesMatter want spaces free of "whiteness". I actually hope everyone gets everything they want, because as soon as some group of nuts manages to break free of the US, Texas will follow suit, and then things will really get crazy. I like crazy, because Americans are great people during a crisis. Everyone pulls together and things work out for the best. So all this racial intolerance stuff is fine with me, it's needed, like grass needs rain, like a garden needs fertilizer. We'll come out the other side for the better, whether we segregate or whether we finally just scrap the idea of segregation completely, regardless of who wants to enforce it. One or the other is going to win out.
Heck, the US and Putin are dancing with WWIII right now. It seems we've allied with Al Quaeda and deliberately ignored ISIS in order to destabilize Syria, which means all those beheadings and rapes and evil things they've done our govt more or less allowed to happen, making Americans unwittingly complicit in crimes equal to what the Nazis committed. Stock markets are jittery, some say we're already in a recession. If you go read the newspapers and websites from the UK, they talk about "The Mexican Cartel War" in the same terms as they would WWII or the Vietnam war, they've got a name for it and everything, it's a full blown war going on within our southern neighbor, yet the US media won't refer to it as a war, people might worry then. American families aren't just being destroyed, they aren't even starting; something like 80% of men in the US under 30 years of age aren't married, and I don't blame them. Why join a union where the most likely outcome is you lose half your belongings and pay with absolutely no long term benefits? Might as well just stay single and buy a house. Germany may swing to the far right again, due to the migrant situation. Sweden will either swing far right or keep continuing on its path towards some form of outright communism, likely becoming a posterchild for how not to run a European country in the process. God help us all if the US swings far right, because if the US ever does there will be blood in the streets. A lot of blood. It's really better for everyone if this racism thing dies while we've got it on the ropes, rather than being nurtured in the name of "community". Community is great but time runs forward, not back, and we're not going back to the 1950s. Not for Hawaiians, not for white people.
It's a right fine mess we've created in the quest for endlessly expanding bank accounts and ultra-capitalism. I don't think most people have realized yet just how bad things have gotten. If the stock market crashes again, or even if it just slowly bleeds value for the next year or so until it levels out, the levels of homeless in Hawaii are going to skyrocket worse than they have already. All so the rich can get richer and the military industrial complex can stay in power.
And after all this, what people in Hawaii are concerned about is how pale a person is? That's so misguided that it doesn't even bother me, because it's hilarious. Rich people raising housing prices until locals can't afford to be locals is the real problem, racially based passive-aggressiveness will never fix that. My white family is passive-aggressive to black people all the time. It doesn't actually make the black people go away.
At some point people wake up and realize we're stuck on a rock together, or we genocide each other, peacefully and culturally or through war. Some people think they're standing on their own rock, but if you look under the water, all the rocks are connected. There are no other continents, there's just a really, really, REALLY big ditch full of water separating the nations, so deep that we can't see it, and just call it a different place instead. Perspective is everything, and we've lost it. The ones who call themselves educated often have lost it the most, and their arrogant self-assurance that they aren't the problem means they don't tend to realize it. Everyone blames the opposite political party, instead, it's much easier than a rigorous self-assessment.
From a sociological perspective it's fascinating.
I should probably become a sociologist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlohaAina3
If your moving to Honolulu or Oahu I really don't think you will have an issue.
My current plan is to spend a month on Oahu, a month on Maui, a month on Big Island, and then a month on Kauai. Then I'll go to whichever was the nicest, or I'll come back to the mainland since it'll be about springtime by then.
But I figure once I get to Kauai I won't want to leave, although it may take a while to find an affordable place and so on, but I have all the time in the world to figure it out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoot N Annie
"fitting in" is not that big of a deal to us. Living in Hawaii for a couple of years was just another item on the proverbial bucket list.
Yeah, this is pretty much how I feel about it. I hope it's great, if it is I'll stay, if it isn't no big deal.
For example, at one point someone here posted something along the lines of "If you come to Waianae you might see things that you wouldn't want your children to be around". I know about Waianae's reputation, but I don't understand what they meant. They'd posted it years ago so I can't just ask them to clarify. The only things I could guess at were drug use/homelessness, public intoxication, or fighting, but I don't see why any of those things by themselves would be enough to literally shock someone who was from the mainland, seeing as all those things exist in large cities everywhere. Is it a matter of the drug use and so on being publicly flaunted in a way that isn't in the rest of the states?
I think that was me that made that post.
Many years back I purchased a small 3 bdrm townhome in Nanakuli as a long-term investment property. I did a lot of the remodeling work myself so was there daily from 8-6 or so for about 6 weeks straight. Every now and then my girlfriend, at the time, would come by to see how the project was coming along. She is of Asian decent but not local - she was born in SF and moved here 3-4 years before we dated. On several occasions she told me that she wanted to call CPS on the neighbor next door or talk to them directly for allowing their barely-older-than-infant aged children to walk around the parking lot unattended with cars whizzing by at often high rate of speed (for a parking lot). I told her it's not her or our place to police them and tell them how to raise their children. But I was also thinking of how this local woman (mother of the children) would likely be further agitated by a thin, well-spoken and well-dressed "mainlander" telling her how to raise her children.
Most anyone from a low income demographic would not be happy if they were told how to live their lives by someone from a wealthier demographic, regardless of race. This is normal human behavior. Most locals perceive most mainlanders as a group that is of a wealthier demographic than their own.
I think non-locals come here, drive down the absolutely gorgeous beach front of Waianae with a backdrop of soaring mountain ranges and are shocked that such a low-income demographic can be living in such a beautiful landscape. The contrast in Waianae is staggering. Virtually any other place in the mainland with that kind of view and beach access to clean blue ocean-life filled water would be occupied by a much wealthier, less ethnically diverse demographic.
But in reality, Waianae and Nanakuli are very much low income neighborhoods with low income neighborhood problems much like any other low income neighborhood in the contiguous US.
And the folks in Waianae are also very aware that if they weren't so antagonistic to the incoming wealthier less ethnically diverse population, they'd be ousted out of their own homes. It's slowly happening, though, development is creeping up on Waianae and probably eventually it will be another mini-Waikiki although it will go through a Kailua phase first. Waimanalo is somewhat similar to Waianae although a little further along the development scale as well as easier to get to.
Any place where you can't be yourself and have to worry about fitting in has problems. As a friend once said when we lived on the Big Island, we pay a price to live here. I miss my friends (all white and black of course, no locals) and the slow pace, but I'm glad we didn't move back to Hilo. We found a place in Florida, of all places, that is liberal and friendly, and works much better for us than where we are currently living in another part of Florida, so we're moving. We will be able to relax simply and be who we are, not be who someone else expects us to be. My wife lived 20 years on O'ahu, and over 20 years on the Big Island, and never made one friend w/ local, and she's the kindest, most non judgmental soul you would ever want to meet. Her tales from the public schools she attended are not pleasant to listen to, and she worked in them for ten tears as a teacher's aid, so she knows the score.
I don't have much to add other than that. I think that's what you're not getting. It's not a fixable problem in my opinion, or maybe only partially fixable. Hawaii, especially the more rural parts, is not a friendly place, unless maybe you're Asian. Period. It doesn't come down to acting like a jerk and being treated like a jerk. The whole world operates like that, so that's nothing unique. It's more like, act fine and still be treated poorly. None of our friends were local when we lived there, and it wasn't us that made friendship impossible. Think of it like this.....when I lived in Savannah, Ga, I lived for a while in a black neighborhood. I happen to be white. Now me, I could care less about that sort of thing, but THEY sure cared. After a while it got tiresome fighting the culture and I moved to another part of town that didn't have that vibe, because no matter what I did, if I had stayed where I was, I was going to be judged by my skin color and made to suffer because of what someone may have done to someone's ancestors over a hundred and fifty years ago, and those people just happened to be my skin color. I of course had nothing to do w/ any of that, but there it was.
No different in Hawaii. After a while you say enough already, it doesn't have to be this way. There are other cultures where I won't be treated like a third class citizen just because of where my family came from and what color I am. My wife, who is black, totality understands this, because she has gone through the exact same thing from my white culture AND the local culture in Hawaii. No one cares about any of this where we're moving to because it's a more liberal, more educated, big city, but in this part of Florida, where we are for three more weeks, being an interracial couple can occasionally be an issue w/ the rednecks. Nothing is said, but nothing needs to be said. You can sure feel it. The locals are the rednecks of Hawaii. It just is what it is.
Location: not sure, but there's a hell of a lot of water around here!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smarino
Any place where you just can't be yourself has problems.
Sure, but if your basic self is basically an a##hole, you might run into some problems. Unless, of course, you're surrounded by similar a##holes, in which case, stay on the mainland..
I think that was me that made that post [...] in reality, Waianae and Nanakuli are very much low income neighborhoods with low income neighborhood problems much like any other low income neighborhood in the contiguous US.
Hey, thanks for replying! I figured that was the case, they actually sound like my kind of people. Aloof in a well meaning sort of way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotzcatz
And the folks in Waianae are also very aware that if they weren't so antagonistic to the incoming wealthier less ethnically diverse population, they'd be ousted out of their own homes. It's slowly happening..
I actually had a feeling that might be the case. There's all this amazing beachfront but "can't go there because da evil locals", it almost sounds Scooby-Doo-ish. But we probably should keep that on the DL ;3
Quote:
Originally Posted by smarino
Any place where you can't be yourself and have to worry about fitting in has problems. As a friend once said when we lived on the Big Island, we pay a price to live here. I miss my friends
It's funny, I came to California and people treated me like that, too. "You'll probably just leave". Then after a few years they opened up to me. Then after a few more years they left. Then everyone I knew mostly left. I'm still here though, lol. If I set roots there I'll never leave. I went to Puerto Rico once as a kid, and though I only got to spend one day at the beach the experience left a lasting impression on me of just pure bliss, rocking back and forth in the waves so long that after I went home I still felt the motion somehow. I think I'll find that again in Hawaii, and that will be enough to justify almost any discomfort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smarino
I don't have much to add other than that. I think that's what you're not getting. It's not a fixable problem in my opinion, or maybe only partially fixable. Hawaii, especially the more rural parts, is not a friendly place, unless maybe you're Asian. Period. It doesn't come down to acting like a jerk and being treated like a jerk. The whole world operates like that, so that's nothing unique. It's more like, act fine and still be treated poorly.
Whether they all ignore me or treat me rudely, as long as they don't outright attack me, I'll get along fine with them. I guess I should get used to boogers in my food or something? Protein :shrug:. Gotta eat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smarino
I happen to be white. Now me, I could care less about that sort of thing, but THEY sure cared.
Dumb people do dumb things. That doesn't make a race dumb. I'd suggest tracing back the negative messages and seeing who's actually starting them and fostering them. Hawaiians aren't responsible for hate being acceptable to be taught in US universities nationwide. Look at who is actually creating that atmosphere and you'll find your true enemy. It's not Hawaiians, nor is it Hawaiian residents. This is much bigger than an Islander issue these days. "Blame the (whatever color) person, just don't blame the rich!". Funny stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smarino
You can sure feel it. The locals are the rednecks of Hawaii. It just is what it is.
Honestly they sound like lovely people, racism and all. Hating a person for being racist is like hating a monkey for eating bananas. We're racist because we exist, we're imperfect, we do dumb things. I do dumb things all the time.
So I can't blame other humans for doing dumb things. Our consciousnesses is like ghosts, wrapped up in meat skeletons, that descended from incredibly violent and territorial apes. Would you expect beings like that to co-operate all the time?
Very little humanity does surprises me anymore, we're in the age of LiveLeak and BestOfWorldStarHipHop.
Hey, thanks for replying! I figured that was the case, they actually sound like my kind of people. Aloof in a well meaning sort of way.
I actually had a feeling that might be the case. There's all this amazing beachfront but "can't go there because da evil locals", it almost sounds Scooby-Doo-ish. But we probably should keep that on the DL ;3
It's funny, I came to California and people treated me like that, too. "You'll probably just leave". Then after a few years they opened up to me. Then after a few more years they left. Then everyone I knew mostly left. I'm still here though, lol. If I set roots there I'll never leave. I went to Puerto Rico once as a kid, and though I only got to spend one day at the beach the experience left a lasting impression on me of just pure bliss, rocking back and forth in the waves so long that after I went home I still felt the motion somehow. I think I'll find that again in Hawaii, and that will be enough to justify almost any discomfort.
Whether they all ignore me or treat me rudely, as long as they don't outright attack me, I'll get along fine with them. I guess I should get used to boogers in my food or something? Protein :shrug:. Gotta eat.
Dumb people do dumb things. That doesn't make a race dumb. I'd suggest tracing back the negative messages and seeing who's actually starting them and fostering them. Hawaiians aren't responsible for hate being acceptable to be taught in US universities nationwide. Look at who is actually creating that atmosphere and you'll find your true enemy. It's not Hawaiians, nor is it Hawaiian residents. This is much bigger than an Islander issue these days. "Blame the (whatever color) person, just don't blame the rich!". Funny stuff.
Honestly they sound like lovely people, racism and all. Hating a person for being racist is like hating a monkey for eating bananas. We're racist because we exist, we're imperfect, we do dumb things. I do dumb things all the time.
So I can't blame other humans for doing dumb things. Our consciousnesses is like ghosts, wrapped up in meat skeletons, that descended from incredibly violent and territorial apes. Would you expect beings like that to co-operate all the time?
Very little humanity does surprises me anymore, we're in the age of LiveLeak and BestOfWorldStarHipHop.
I believe your getting it OP. I always say if you want to understand hawaii and her issues or culture, Understand her history. Her history will tell you everything about today. Though I like your train of thought about humanity, for those who keep repeating history the notion of no blame can become a comfortable thing. Op there will be people who will have you focused on the word haole and how locals are racist, so that you don't notice that every poor community in Oahu is full of minorities and the richer the community the less minorities. The exception being Asians who are not a minority in Oahu. Or how in the last few decade s Oahu looks more and more like a paradise for the well to do vs paradise for the locals or what Hawaii was consistently for decades before the last two. Everything changes, natural change is one thing. Big money has worked hard to change Hawaii culturely and physically to make Oahu a comfortable place to live for them. Somethings in the history of Hawaii hasn't changed
Nothing is said, but nothing needs to be said. You can sure feel it. The locals are the rednecks of Hawaii. It just is what it is.
My black friend had a similar experience in Hawaii. The facts that he was not "ghetto" at all, that he never patronized nor rejected native Hawaians did not matter. He was still black. He told me that he encountered far more brown skin red necks in Hawaii than he did blond ones in the deep piney woods of east Texas where we grew up. The only thing that saved him from fights with the locals was his size.
My black friend had a similar experience in Hawaii. The facts that he was not "ghetto" at all, that he never patronized nor rejected native Hawaians did not matter. He was still black. He told me that he encountered far more brown skin red necks in Hawaii than he did blond ones in the deep piney woods of east Texas where we grew up. The only thing that saved him from fights with the locals was his size.
Interesting, my wife is black (I'm white) and hasn't sensed the slightest bit of hostility from anyone on Maui.
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