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I’m not referring to times of hunter-gatherer, but Even then, it is still human nature for having a thirst for liberty and individualism. Is not every person unique? Isn’t it natural to resist conformity? Because a person lived a life in a remote tribe doesn’t make human nature go away. There is still sin and selfishness. There is still a desire to be free. That’s why even in small tribes there are rules to protect the civil society within that tribe. Western society just happens to be much bigger and there is also a rule of law to keep a civil society. Would humans be more happy living in a small tribe without knowing this world? Who knows, maybe. Again, that still doesn’t make human nature to go away.
Um ... whooosh.
No, it’s not natural to resist conformity and thirst for personal liberty and individualism ... it’s understandable in huge seas of ‘at-each-others-throats’ impersonalized highly competitive mass societies. But “natural”? No. True human nature can best be found in remote tribes ... NOT in massive societies.
As I suggested: if you want to understand, take up study of anthropology. Natural is tiny to small, cooperative societies. Rule of law is not required when everyone relies on each others’ cooperation for survival. Requirements for rules increase exponentially with size of society.
Not suggesting that Hawaii is a tiny, insularly cooperatively dependent society. Just pointing out that everything in life is relative. And on a relative scale, modern Hawaii is fairly unique in its separation from the mass inertia of America. And it has a history of cooperative living that is carried forward and retained to a FAR greater degree than the mainland cultures.
Yeah, it’s a contagious virus, it’s aggressive, but if the death rate is equivalent as the flu, was all this worth it?
Death rate equivilent to the flu?
Does that mean where rigorous mitigation protocols (which you apparently may find disturbing
because you are yearning for some notion of unrestrained freedom) have been put into place and
the death toll caused by and related to Covid19 are significantly under modeled forecasts? How
utterly convenient to even suggest the death rate may be equivalent to the seasonal flu when
completely ignoring the results of those mitigation efforts.
Perhaps you are on the wrong forum. Maybe you should be on the Northern Italy Forum
and ask them how their death toll to Covid 19 compared to the seasonal flu by not
implementing early interdiction.
If Ige has any balls whatsoever, he'd just move ahead with the pay cuts, as is his right as governor to do. He obviously will not please the unions or the lawmakers. Hawaii politicians, since they still want to get re elected will grandstand and present all sorts of non-feasible solutions to pretend to be "the good guy".
I think he is one the poorest communicators I have ever witnessed.
However, I agree with the strategy to get it in the press and at least see if it spurs Federal money - it probably won't - but you miss all the shots you don't take.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyfinestbxtf
Yeah, it’s a contagious virus, it’s aggressive, but if the death rate is equivalent as the flu, was all this worth it?
If you are 70 or older - of course. There are flu vaccines - I can't remember the last time I got the flu. If you have hypertension, older, drink, fat - you don't want to get this. If you are healthy in your 20s or 30s - probably don't care who get it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyfinestbxtf
When people find out that the death rate of this virus is no worse than the flu, will it be worth it to them to have forever lost business and livelihood?
Except there is a vaccine against the flu. I can pause my livelihood for a year - why is that such a big deal. And by the way - referring to residents of Hawaii as Hawaiians which I snipped out is really offensive to people who live here. Only about 10% of the population is Hawaiian - Hawaiian is a race
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyfinestbxtf
You think the Founders of the United States just conjured up the Constitution and Declaration of Independence out of thin air? There are simple universal truths to mankind. There are God given rights that our Founders understood that mankind has the right to pursue happiness, to life, and liberty. None of this is universal throughout our planet throughout all mankind’s existence? We only have to look at history to know this is true.
A debate on a hugely flawed document that we live under that is over 200 years old and shouldn't apply to modern times is probably left best to another forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bamaman1
I think most state employees, especially the longer term employees, would prefer their salaries remain the same and that the state layoff 20% of their total workers.
Except it wouldn't work that way - you'd have to layoff far more than 20% to get the same results. Senior and most highly paid would retain jobs per state rules.
There IS a vaccine for seasonal flus and “that many people” DO still get infected. How many would be infected if there was no vaccine?
Who told you Covid-19 “doesn’t mutate”? ALL viruses mutate. That’s how new ones come into play and why we need new vaccines for new strains regularly.
Hydroxychloroquin has been given approval based on its use in other applications for a long time. It has NOT been proven to work in any quantified degree for Covid-19 yet. The successes are still considered anecdotal. I am not for or against Hydroxychloroquin. But you are ahead of proof. Please refrain from spreading false information.
And if that vaccine is off, it’s pointless. Covid-19 hasn’t mutated yet as far as I know and if there have been any mutations, it’s been happening very slowly in comparison to the flu.
Hydroxychloroquin has been working for Covid-19 from what I have seen. The jury might still be out on the scale of the degree it works, but if hydroxychloroquin turns out to be a treatment for Covid on a big scale, that’s a game changer. There will be a lot less panic. With that said, I believe their are forces out there who do not want hydroxychloroquin to work. Don’t let a good crisis go to waste.
No, it’s not natural to resist conformity and thirst for personal liberty and individualism ... it’s understandable in huge seas of ‘at-each-others-throats’ impersonalized highly competitive mass societies. But “natural”? No. True human nature can best be found in remote tribes ... NOT in massive societies.
As I suggested: if you want to understand, take up study of anthropology. Natural is tiny to small, cooperative societies. Rule of law is not required when everyone relies on each others’ cooperation for survival. Requirements for rules increase exponentially with size of society.
Not suggesting that Hawaii is a tiny, insularly cooperatively dependent society. Just pointing out that everything in life is relative. And on a relative scale, modern Hawaii is fairly unique in its separation from the mass inertia of America. And it has a history of cooperative living that is carried forward and retained to a FAR greater degree than the mainland cultures.
Hotzcatz is spot on with the post referred to.
Are those tribal societies not free? Isn’t every individual in those tribal societies not have uniqueness? Does it not go against human nature to be oppressed and conform? Whether you live in a modern western civil society or some remote tribe, human nature is human nature and all humans have been tainted by sin. Is living in a remote tribe more pleasant? Depends on the person. We can go as far back as the time of Adam and Eve. Maybe real human nature is to live in a time when there was no sin in the world. That is truly how God created humans to live, in a world with no disease or sickness. A world with no death and misery. Humans who are perfect and without blemish. If you want to talk about how mankind was intended to live, we can go that far back. God created mankind for perfection with free will.
Does that mean where rigorous mitigation protocols (which you apparently may find disturbing
because you are yearning for some notion of unrestrained freedom) have been put into place and
the death toll caused by and related to Covid19 are significantly under modeled forecasts? How
utterly convenient to even suggest the death rate may be equivalent to the seasonal flu when
completely ignoring the results of those mitigation efforts.
Perhaps you are on the wrong forum. Maybe you should be on the Northern Italy Forum
and ask them how their death toll to Covid 19 compared to the seasonal flu by not
implementing early interdiction.
It is starting to look that way, that Covid-19 death rate is close to the same death rate as the flu. If it turns out that way, was it worth it?
We can look at Italy, but why not look at Germany who has had the lowest death rate. What if millions more people were infected than what we are being told?
I think he is one the poorest communicators I have ever witnessed.
However, I agree with the strategy to get it in the press and at least see if it spurs Federal money - it probably won't - but you miss all the shots you don't take.
If you are 70 or older - of course. There are flu vaccines - I can't remember the last time I got the flu. If you have hypertension, older, drink, fat - you don't want to get this. If you are healthy in your 20s or 30s - probably don't care who get it.
Except there is a vaccine against the flu. I can pause my livelihood for a year - why is that such a big deal. And by the way - referring to residents of Hawaii as Hawaiians which I snipped out is really offensive to people who live here. Only about 10% of the population is Hawaiian - Hawaiian is a race
A debate on a hugely flawed document that we live under that is over 200 years old and shouldn't apply to modern times is probably left best to another forum.
Except it wouldn't work that way - you'd have to layoff far more than 20% to get the same results. Senior and most highly paid would retain jobs per state rules.
Most people can’t pause their livelihood for a year. Imagine if we all paused our livelihood for a year? Wonder what that would look like. It’s not my intention to offend anyone. I know most people who live in Hawaii are not ethnic Hawaiians. People who live in Hawaii, their human nature is no different than the human nature of someone who lives elsewhere.
The Constitution was written by man, so yes, it is not perfect. With that said it very much applies to life and mankind today because it recognizes unchanging truths. I get this isn’t the forum for Constitution talk, but curious what should replace the Constitution? It’s not like that Constitution was written on a whim.
It is starting to look that way, that Covid-19 death rate is close to the same death rate as the flu. If it turns out that way, was it worth it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyfinestbxtf
We can look at Italy, but why not look at Germany who has had the lowest death rate. What if millions more people were infected than what we are being told?
Recent findings suggest Covid 19 causes strokes, seizures, and even permanent brain damage in those who recover. I don't believe this should be shrugged off as just another "flu".
It is starting to look that way, that Covid-19 death rate is close to the same death rate as the flu. If it turns out that way, was it worth it?
We can look at Italy, but why not look at Germany who has had the lowest death rate. What if millions more people were infected than what we are being told?
Nyfinesbxtf, regarding your query about millions being infected, if you are given a bag containing 100 peanuts and and told that three of the peanuts are poison and you will die if you eat one, are you going to eat the penauts or throw away the unopened bag?
Germany has a lower death toll because they recognised the probem; put into place and the population followed rigorous mitigation protocols when Italy did not. They are working well in New Zealand and South Korea too because they are following strict mitigation procedures. South Korea experienced their first case of Covid19 around the same time we did here in the United States.
Is it worth it? The CDC and other research entities have modeled the death toll in the United States
based on no mitigation efforts being put into place. Those numbers profoundly exceed those of the
seasonal flu. Perhaps the number of poison peanuts in that bag inreases to six or seven.
Like I stated before, you are on the wrong forum. You should go to the Northern Italy Forum and ask
them if it is worth it. Do us a favor, let us know what they tell you.
Recent findings suggest Covid 19 causes strokes, seizures, and even permanent brain damage in those who recover. I don't believe this should be shrugged off as just another "flu".
Although it should be noted that is typically for those who go on a ventilator. Ventilators are nasty but necessary
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