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I do believe the American people has a spirit of defiance and has a very low tolerance of liberty being suppressed. Most people understood flatten the curve so we do not overwhelm our health care system. They stayed home, closed their business, they isolated themselves from others, they allowed the government to decide who is essential and who is not for a temporary period of time. The curve now has been flattened. No one imagined these restrictions would last into the summer. More and more we are starting to see defiance from the American people. I also fear for the police who work in areas of our nation that refuse to open up and who enforce draconian restrictions. It’s a powder keg about to explode. As a retired cop, shame on cops who enforce unconstitutional restrictions. Our bill of rights do not go away because of a pandemic. Our Founders in fact we’re quite aware of pandemics and there is no clause that I can find that suspends the Bill of Rights unlimitedly. Restrictions should be no more extensive than the threat reasonably demands. We are going on three months now with restrictions with some laws more draconian than others. These people in positions of power within our government are going to wake a sleeping giant if they don’t pump the brakes and it will get ugly.
Take out NY, NJ, and CT, and this curve has definitely not been flattened.
You really should read Jacobson v Massachusetts - a decision from 1905 still in force today. It is the reason none of the stay at home orders have been overturned. It covers a wide range of issues from State Police Powers, forced vaccination, quarantines, and health.
Some snippets.....
The police power of a State embraces such reasonable regulations relating to matters completely within its territory, and not affecting the people of other States, established directly by legislative enactment, as will protect the public health and safety.
While a local regulation, even if based on the acknowledged police power of a State, must always yield in case of conflict with the exercise by the General Government of any power it possesses under the Constitution, the mode or manner of exercising its police power is wholly within the discretion of the State so long as the Constitution of the United States is not contravened, or any right granted or secured thereby is not infringed, or not exercised in such an arbitrary and oppressive manner as to justify the interference of the courts to prevent wrong and oppression.
The liberty secured by the Constitution of the United States does not import an absolute right in each person to be at all times, and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint, nor is it an element in such liberty that one person, or a minority of persons residing in any community and enjoying the benefits of its local government, should have power to dominate the majority when supported in their action by the authority of the State.
I'll just add that while none of have been overturned, some have been limited by federal courts as they ran afoul of the First Amendment. Also, on a more fundamental level, I'd argue that these orders haven't been overturned because they've generally stayed within the confines of the Constitution, whether articulated by this or other Supreme Court opinion that you referenced.
Last edited by prospectheightsresident; 05-12-2020 at 10:40 AM..
Our government does provide for emergency restrictions.
None of these restrictions are being codified into perpetuity.
Three months - or even six - or even 12, if necessary, is not a long time. (Not to suggest shut downs will last six or 12 months.). History provides numerous examples of civilizations enduring long-term struggles when under threat and duress. Three months is a blink.
Protests inHawaii? Yes. Riots? No.
You didn’t have to respond. That’s your choice. Like I said, because of a pandemic, the Bill of Rights does not go away.
In the grand scheme of things, three years, thirty years, a 100 years is a flash in the pan, but three months is not a blink when you have a business or a job to provide for your family. The curve has been flattened and now it’s time to lift these restrictions. That was the purpose of the lock down. People understood the restrictions and mostly agreed to help save lives. People willingly surrendered some of their liberty, but Waiting another 6-12 months is not acceptable for a virus that has a mortality rate of .1%. It will not happen. People who choose to continue to be under house arrest and isolate themselves, that’s their individual choice. I will say, States that refuse to open up while enforcing draconian restrictions will be interesting to watch. Seems most of those states who don’t want to open up also want mail in ballots. Just saying.
Right now, our Constitutional rights are more important than ever. Some of the actions I have seen from governors, mayors, and the police have been quite disturbing. The idea that the government can trump individual liberties is repugnant to natural rights. You may agree or disagree with this. I believe most Americans agree that our natural rights does not get suspended because of a pandemic and the longer those natural rights are suppressed I believe a powder keg is about to go off. It’s a fact that We are seeing more and more defiance.
As the saying goes "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."
Our government does provide for emergency restrictions.
None of these restrictions are being codified into perpetuity.
Three months - or even six - or even 12, if necessary, is not a long time. (Not to suggest shut downs will last six or 12 months.). History provides numerous examples of civilizations enduring long-term struggles when under threat and duress. Three months is a blink.
Protests inHawaii? Yes. Riots? No.
Actually, it doesn't appear this poster suggested 6 or 12 months.
I did not predict, nor suggest, nor support “6 to 12 months”. I said “even ... if necessary.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt
Here we go again.
Our government does provide for emergency restrictions.
None of these restrictions are being codified into perpetuity.
Three months - or even six - or even 12, if necessary, is not a long time. (Not to suggest shut downs will last six or 12 months.). History provides numerous examples of civilizations enduring long-term struggles when under threat and duress. Three months is a blink.
You didn’t have to respond. That’s your choice. Like I said, because of a pandemic, the Bill of Rights does not go away.
In the grand scheme of things, three years, thirty years, a 100 years is a flash in the pan, but three months is not a blink when you have a business or a job to provide for your family. The curve has been flattened and now it’s time to lift these restrictions. That was the purpose of the lock down. People understood the restrictions and mostly agreed to help save lives. People willingly surrendered some of their liberty, but Waiting another 6-12 months is not acceptable for a virus that has a mortality rate of .1%. It will not happen. People who choose to continue to be under house arrest and isolate themselves, that’s their individual choice. I will say, States that refuse to open up while enforcing draconian restrictions will be interesting to watch. Seems most of those states who don’t want to open up also want mail in ballots. Just saying.
Right now, our Constitutional rights are more important than ever. Some of the actions I have seen from governors, mayors, and the police have been quite disturbing. The idea that the government can trump individual liberties is repugnant to natural rights. You may agree or disagree with this. I believe most Americans agree that our natural rights does not get suspended because of a pandemic and the longer those natural rights are suppressed I believe a powder keg is about to go off. It’s a fact that We are seeing more and more defiance.
As the saying goes "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."
No one is trying to take away the Bill of Rights. Governors across the nation are acting in what they believe are the best interests of their citizens, as mandated by the national and states’ constitutions. They may or may not prove to have chosen the best paths. But they are entirely within the rights granted them by the constitutions they operate under. Nothing they are doing is being codified into permanent, legislated impositions.
The Black Plague lasted over 5 years (and returned numerous times roughly 20 years apart over centuries). Revolutions and world wars lasted years. Lots of hard events have befallen humanity and lasted more than 2-3 months of limitations of lifestyle and security and liberties. Sure some folks are going to suffer a lot, others less, some next to not at all. But the ‘enemy’ is not other people. This is not a struggle of domination by one class / race over another ... which is where you find revolution and rioting. It is a common enemy. ... unless armchair-analyst fools who think they can outthink scientists want to take political / ideological sides to create an enemy they can take their frustrations out on - ignorantly.
You seem to believe that will happen. I don‘t, in this case ... and especially not in Hawaii.
I’m not going to try to present myself as an expert on all things Hawaii. I’m not a resident and never have been (except in the sense of being stationed there in the military) and I’ve never spent more than 6 months at a stretch in the state. But I’ve been coming and going since 1966. And kept boats to live on in Ala Wai, Keehi Lagoon, and Pearl Harbor over a number of years. During which time I have made some pretty clear observations of the cultural mix that makes up this unique American community.
No culture dominates. The Japanese strike me as at least perhaps as strong as the mainland Americans. Then there are, of course, the actual Hawaiians who, while smaller in percentage numbers, for obvious reasons perpetuate their root culture. Then there are other cultures of the Pacific and Rim.
While all these cultures interface very smoothly and actively, there are some very distinct propensities in each at play. The Japanese are definitely not the rioting type. The mainlander-derived, mostly caucasians, are substantially military, who aren’t the rioting type, and a lot of pretty well-off folks, who aren't rioting types either.
I can go on, but not necessary. Bottom line is: Hawaii is a small, insular community in spite of this diversity. And within the diversity there is little-to-no anger aimed at each other culture component. The kind of divisiveness we see in mainland cities and states is small, and not aggressively pernicious in Hawaii. And this threat is not class-based anyway. It is a frickin virus.
The mainland has a small but highly visible contingent of population that likes to dress up in camo and carry guns in public with signs about “Don’t Tread on Me” and such. These fringe nuts just don’t have a footing 2,500 miles off-shore in the Pacific. Thankfully.
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